Jordan Peterson on picking up women

April 2, 2018
krauserpua

This is a good Jordan Peterson talk relevant to daygame winging and state-crashing – particularly the opening minute. Most consistent daygamers are familiar with the following cycle, one that hits especially hard when euro-jaunting:

  1. Two guys fly out together, share an apartment. Full of optimism
  2. They hit the streets. Collect numbers, wait to see what hits
  3. Guy A gets laid
  4. More streets, more numbers, more filtering.
  5. Guy A gets laid again. Guy B still struggling despite doing equally good street work
  6. Guy A buzzes with enthusiasm. Guy B crashes

Intellectually, we all know the stats. We know that daygame success is like a poker player waiting for his big hand, and he can be getting ante’d away by the crappy cards until that happens. Sometimes you get your luck early (like Guy A in this example), sometimes late, and sometimes not until the next euro jaunt.

Knowing all this intellectually doesn’t make it feel any better. Jordan Peterson explains why this is not a problem of mental constructs (i.e. how you process and interpret reality) but is actually neurochemical. It’s your body’s natural changes to your brain chemistry that state crash you.

In the video he’s talking about dominance hierarchies. When your brain tries to regard itself in the face of difficult problems, it will defer towards the group conclusion. If you rise up in the dominance hierarchy, that is the group giving a favourable regard to you, which you can then give to yourself. Here is Peterson’s key contribution:

Your brain then rewards you with serotonin.

You get more ‘feel good’ chemicals, lower neuroticism (i.e. “in your head” self-talk), and your body language and facial expression naturally reflects it (which girls notice, putting you on a roll). This is when daygame becomes extremely good fun because you are in a virtuous circle of success driving serotonin production which itself drives success.

When you’re euro-jaunting with the wing, you are in a dominance hierarchy of two [1]. If he starts pulling away, your brain will reduce serotonin production and give you the symptoms of state-crashing.

People chase pleasurable stimuli. It’s a form of self-medication. I think every intermediate daygamer comes to understand the value-tap / state-crash dynamic and it’s tempting to take advantage to give yourself a boost to serotonin and thus improve your results and mental state. In the virtual realm, this is why so many pricks are trying to one-up each other on forums puffing themselves up with (often imaginary) successes. They are trying to climb a rung or two higher up the dominance hierarchy and get a serotonin boost.

I go into detail in Daygame Infinite about how wings should behave to avoid such problems and I list out three pages of dirty tricks to watch out for so you don’t get value-tapped and, for the conscientious among you, so you don’t value tap your wings. It’s also why I promote the “daygame river” type of daygame that sidesteps these silly dominance games in the first place.

Infinite smaller res cover

If you’d like to get good at daygame, you can’t be without Daygame Infinite, the cutting edge textbook for street pick-up instruction.

[1] If you obsessively compare your results against other bloggers and forum guys, you have a virtual dominance hierarchy to compete with too.

22 Comments

  1. If that’s how it work, what if we voluntarily inject serotonin in every time we do something that we aiming for, but very hard to succeed at it.
    It that’s true(just biochemical) then it should work, right? [Can’t see what could POSSIBLY go wrong there. K.]

  2. As an aside, what do you make of Peterson, psycho-sexually? He obviously stares red-pill truths in the face and doesn’t blink, and he’s no pushover or pussy when it comes to an intellectual fight (to say the least). But at the same time, he describes himself as a sexual conservative and he seems to have married his high school sweetheart (with the happy results, luckily, that were more common to a bygone era). To me, anyway, he gives the impression of a guy without a lot of romantic and sexual experience. I always wonder how these “low-n alpha males” would be different if they’d put it about more in their younger years. Like, if he’d had more skin in the game (heh), maybe his vibe and maybe even his content would be different. Do you know what I mean?

    • JBP is known to encourage “dominance” but discourage “causal sex.” He has some line about men being very attractive, but choosing to be with “just one girl.” Something like that. He goes off about “sluts” in his MixMentalArts interview from Jan. He has also dissed the pickup community, with the usual straw man attacks about manipulation, etc.

      Meanwhile, you’re right, he has zero personal experience in the SMP. And I doubt he knows many proper Chad-like players.

      This is all judgmental, classic “morality tale” kind of thinking here… but he doesn’t know many men that have integrated seduction into their lives (those men are rare, but they exist).

      If JBP is all about “meaning” (and he is), he should ask some questions about “meaning” in the life of players. I think that is the way to reach JBP on this topic. And I think once JBP was exposed to those stories… his comments about game would be very interesting.

  3. Good post. I have often thought to myself that many of the Peterson’s illustrations, whether drawn from mythology or evolutionary biology, are the place from which some fundamental principles in game are derived.

    For example, Peterson says ‘the top of the dominance hierarchy is a good place to be’ but ‘the top of all possible dominance hierarchies is a *better* place to be’. https://youtu.be/07Ys4tQPRis . This seems like a reasonable explanation as to why the sigma character is more compelling than the alpha; the alpha exists only within a single dominance hierarchy whereas the sigma transcends dominance hierarchies. Dominance hierarchies, Peterson says, are inherently prone to corruption and collapse. Therefore, those men that can adapt to the widest set of possible dominance hierarchies are those with the highest chance of reproductive success. Initiating a skilled interaction out of nothing on the street without reliance on any other social support demonstrates a man’s ability to transcend dominance hierarchies.

    Peterson also examines the work of primatologist Frans de Waal who studied dominance hierarchies in chimpanzees. https://youtu.be/07Ys4tQPRis?t=41m42s He refers to dominance hierarchies formed among chimps saying that the chimp that gets to, and stays at, the top is optimally situated for maximum reproductive potential. Such a chimp, shows both the ability to be aggressive but also the ability to be cooperative and empathic and makes allowances for those that he rules over. It struck me that need to be simultaneously aggressive and empathetic (or oscillate between the two) may be the root of universal fractionation and the attraction/comfort model.

  4. The problem of valuetapping or being valuetapped is a false problem because it presumes both of the parts have low self esteem: if you need to valuetap your wing to feel good –> low self esteem; if you feel bad if your wing valuetaps you –> low self esteem.
    This is an issue I noticed often in the PUA community and these are guys you see right away have problems. The valuetap dynamic is just a symptom. It’s not a matter of being coscientious. Problem is deeper. Girls understand who these guys are, may laugh with them but never sleep with them. Problem is indeed about self-esteem.

  5. >> I think every intermediate daygamer comes to understand the value-tap / state-crash dynamic and it’s tempting to take advantage to give yourself a boost to serotonin and thus improve your results and mental state.

    I barely understand this concept from you, Krauser. I’ve heard you talk about it so many times… and I have read that section of Infinite. I don’t feel “state tapped” from my wings.

    I’ve had bad wings… like a boring guy, or a nervous guy, or neurotic guy… but never felt “tapped” in this way.

    >> In the virtual realm, this is why so many pricks are trying to one-up each other on forums puffing themselves up with (often imaginary) successes.

    This ^ comment explains it better than I’ve the previous examples… I can see this kind of jockeying for status in forums and online. And I can see how that could make a man feel better/worse depending on how that group status shapes up.

    I never got the “wing” version of this… because my wings are cool guys. I don’t think we “value tap” each other.

    >> Guy A buzzes with enthusiasm. Guy B crashes

    This, however… I totally get. Even without competition.

    My last Japan trip… I was solo. And even then… the amount of compliance I was getting from girls was a sign of my place “in the dominance hierarchy.” This is also true here at home, but less significant, as I have a more “well balanced” life here.

    On my Japan trip… when I couldn’t get a date… my state would crash. I went through two different waves of “nothing” in Japan, both times it was hard to maintain state (=serotonin). I went through many,many “micro crashes” within a given day.

    My solution was this: Hard word.

    I score high in “industriousness.” And it’s a personal psychological trick that I like to take my frustration and turn it into “hard work.” That’s what I did. And my self worth shifted into how much work/dedication I had… but then that work produced results… lots of leads… lots of dates… and then some sex.

    Bad state > frustration > state crash > commitment and dedication > hard work > consistency > pride > improved state > leads > improved state > easier/better leads > dates/dates/dates > more leads > sex > more leads > dates > sex… and that feeling of being “top of the hierarchy.”

    This ^ is what it is like for me… when it works. When it doesn’t work…it’s state crash… or, sometimes, my pride at my dedication buoys me.

    And while I hit “abundance” sometimes… I never “retain” any sense of abundance. Abundance comes/goes… I can use how hard I work to change my results AND my criteria for “dominant,” but over and over… the environment tells us how we are doing… and body chemicals follow.

  6. >> For example, Peterson says ‘the top of the dominance hierarchy is a good place to be’ but ‘the top of all possible dominance hierarchies is a *better* place to be’.
    — Horuspua

    Yes ^. Here are some quotes from JBP on this topic from the second Sam Harris talk.

    “If the dominance hierarchy is only based on brute force… and the chimp at the top who’s generally male, is there because he’s a barbarian dictator, let’s say… then he is very likely to be taken out by two male chimps 3/4 his power, who are much better at social bonding and who’ve made a very tight compact between one another.”

    “The chimp troop that is based on a tyranny is unstable. What de Wall indicated was that the chimp troops that tend to be more stable are run by dominant males who actually are very good at social bonding and reciprocity and who pay a fair bit of attention to the females and infants in the troop… The dominance isn’t power, so much as you might think as “good politics.””

    “The goal of human life isn’t to win the game. The goal of human life, in some sense, is to win the set of all possible games. And in order to win the set of all possible games, you don’t need to win any particular game, you have to play in a manner that ensures that you will be invited to play more and more games.”

    “But because human beings are capable of abstraction, we’ve been able to conceptualize the hierarchy as such — rather than any specific one — and also to characterize a mode of being that likely to move up the hierarchy no matter what hierarchy there is.

    “It’s not only he who plays and is invited to play again, but he who goes out into the great unknown, to face chaos and the dangers there, but to gather what is of value as a consequence and to bring is back to the community.”

    ^ Players journey… you could say this blog does exactly that.

  7. OK that’s somewhat true.

    But, do you think that the real SIGMA would given a fuck or even that this concept of social hierarchy could benefit them?
    Isn’t a SIGMA who’s predisposed to be the outlier from THAT kind of society standard?

    OR Is has to comeback again at the root of our biology?? *which mean: You CAN’T ESCAPE IT* a.k.a Sigma Male is just another Anti-Social Construct and manufactured MindWank from Self-grandeurs.

    *It’s actually the same argument which usually used to attack cis-gedered people. LOL =P

  8. Hey Krauser, would you answer a sex drive question for me? I ask because i know you were married and then started this journey in your 30s.

    Have you noticed a change in sex drive from your 20s to your 30s? And when you were married was it lower?

    Im in an ltr…was crushing it as a player beforehand abd had a healthy strong sex drive. I love my gfs body and the sex is excellent. But my overall drive towards new girls seems way lower than even a year ago. Its been a pretty stressful relationship so i do factor that in.

    Any experience with flictuations in drive? I guess i wonder if its an age thing..which troubles me. [My sex drive is fine for chasing girls but somewhat diminished from my 20s. I still get very up for banging girls but can turn my mind away from it very easily nowadays too. K.]

  9. For the record Jordan B Peterson hates the entire concept of pick up artistry. His rant against PUAs can be viewed here. https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=BTbCEoXJnbg. Rollo Tomassi of The Rational Male discusses how Jordan is blue pilled in this blog post and video. https://www.google.ca/amp/s/therationalmale.com/2018/02/12/no-prescriptions/amp/ [Yes, I saw that. Peterson is opposed to a straw man of what he thinks PUA is based on the Strauss-era internent marketers. K.]

  10. I saw some Peterson’s video and I dont like him. His concepts are out of date, a sort of grandmother’s advices more blue-pilled than many grandmothers. There’s nothing new nor revolutionary, just a phd professor who puts a lot of effort through his body language and tone of voice to appear he knows better than others. Also he’s clearly a guy who never got laid and probably had some problems with alcohol at some point in his life.

    • Yup. Peterson only fucked one woman in his entire life. His wife who he met and fell in love with at 7 years old… And he’s had oneitis for her ever since

  11. Pingback: You can’t bang em’ all – roywalkerdaygame

  12. Krauser, off-topic, but have you heard about what’s happening in South Africa against the white farmers? Would be interested to hear your take on it. [White genocide. Extremely predictable. SA was much better for both whites and blacks under apartheid. Thatcher was right about Mandela, he was a grubby terrorist. K.]

  13. Hi Nick, random I have some leads in London who I have dated but genuinely have a tempestuous desire to seal the deal with. I’m not good looking so I’m not slumming it either. My mind casts itself to the plenitude of hotter women on the continent. My daygame heart desires greater utility. My company has offices around the world so I’m thinking of doing a short stint abroad. Is it worth it in your experience? I know you did Japan in your younger days. [If you feel the urge to travel, it’s worth it at least for 6 months. Not just for girls. It’s a good life experience. K.]

    • Thanks just today i did a session and the hottest girl I stopped called it a shame that she couldn’t grab a coffee as she is unavailable. I’ve made it a habit to go full R in these latter instances. It’s almost like they have a look of disappointment when I tell them I don’t really do boyfriend even though I don’t look like the sort of guy she would go for usually (ethnicity wise). Correct me if i’m wrong but the r select stuff goes better with the less attractive girls? cause this girl looked like a model. Bizarre.

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