Potemkin Clubs

January 17, 2017

I was standing in Levels nightclub in Bangkok with Steve and Jason at around 1am. We’d just finished drinking at Oskars bar down the road, a rather nice place that seemed to attract lots of local women who seemed exceptionally pleased to see us. Having already run the gauntlet of semi-pro hordes in Patong we had their number immediately.

“Fuck this nonsense. Let’s try a club” Steve had declared. So here we were.

The initial signs were good. Nice decor, wide open area, and a quieter outside rooftop bar where the balmy night air blew in. Lots of girls, mostly Thai with a smattering of white girls. Some strong IOIs.

“This doesn’t feel right” I commented. “It feels more like a nightclub scene from a TV show than an actual nightclub”

Steve knows clubs considerably better than I and he agreed. “Probably hookers. Let’s see”. He turned to a trio of girls spilling out of their nice dresses. “Excuse me, are you a whore?” (or words to that effect).

Just imagine his rep points on RooshV Forum

Just imagine his rep points on RooshV Forum

Yes, she was. We noticed another pair of girls at the bar IOIing almost ever man, occasionally even reaching out to touch them as they walked past. Over by the DJ I saw a rather pretty Russian girl showing extreme interest in the conversation of a chubby Indian man who looked like he could star in Big Bang Theory.

“There’s two normal girls” said Jason, pointing out a mediocre blonde girl and her trashy tattooed brunette friend. A seven and a six respectively, if you’re drunk and in a dark club. Both white and not hot enough to be whores.

A big fat Turk came out of the elevator and past security. Middle-aged and sweaty, he looked like Kojak after a decade living rough. The kind of man who has never had free sex in his life. He stood in the middle of the room scanning then made a beeline to the trio of Thai whores Steve had interrogated. A minute later he was back.

Couldn't help making connection to this great book

Couldn’t help making connection to this great book

I turned my back for less than a minute and when I glanced over again he was talking to the two white girls. Literally three minutes later he led them both out of the club with the “gonna have a threesome” smirk. Needless to say, I did not attribute his success to tight game.

A Russian ex-girlfriend who’d lived in Thailand recently was chatting to me on Facebook. Asking how I was getting on in Bangkok she sent me a listicle of the Thirteen Girls You Date In Thailand. Standing in Levels nightclub I scan the list and when it covers the “sideline girl” (i.e. semi pro) it specifically identifies Levels nightclub.

“Let’s get out of this shit hole” I said. Did I mention there were hardly any Thai men in this club?

We’d been recommended Sugar nightclub down the road [1]. That was 300 baht entry including a free bottle of beer. Early signs where bad as hip hop blasted out of the speakers and I felt like I was living in a mud hut surrounded by African savages. The elevator dumped us in a dark room with strobe lighting. Several rows of small high tables ringed the dancefloor and a line of young white men with hunted eyes stood frozen still watching the Thai girls gyrate clumsily.

Got me looking so crazy right now. Uh oh, uh oh, uh oh, oh no no

Got me looking so crazy right now. Uh oh, uh oh, uh oh, oh no no

“Lots of two sets flashing their little eyes” said Steve, referring to a half dozen different pairs of girls standing at the tables slowly drinking beer. A large wrap-around sofa booth in the corner was hosting a fat white man, his bottle service, and four thai girls. They were dressed quite nice. Before long a drunk girl from the booth IOId me and I waved her over. She chatted a while but was fucked off her nut and playing the usual attention whore club games. She did tell me a few interesting things.

“I don’t work here” she proclaimed. “I do office job. It’s my friend birthday, she work here” and pointed to one of the girls indulging the fat white guy as he held court around his expensive vodka bottle. My new drunk friend flitted off and started chatting to two girls at a table who she clearly knew.

I began to look around the club with a new eye. Let’s assume every single thai girl here is on the club payroll, even the “patrons”. Within minutes my theory was confirmed. As the glass collector did his rounds these girls would hug him, or slap his arse, or talk freely in exactly the same manner you’d expect if they were there five nights a week because it’s their job.

“This is a Potemkin Club” I told Jason. “It’s all an illusion. The entire business is a carefully staged environment to give men like us the illusion that we are attractive and a grey area to pay for the privilege without feeling like we are just whoring.”

Suddenly half of what I’d seen in Phuket and Bangkok made sense. This wasn’t whoring in the Western model where you strike up a price then bang the pro. Thailand was offering the “girlfriend experience” on a wider level – it wasn’t just the girl bullshitting you that “you handsome man”. The entire nightclub was bullshitting you.

Not bullshit, Patong.

Not bullshit, Patong.

Steve left in disgust and Jason and I left a quarter hour later. Further down the squalid street that is Soi 11, I waited outside a 7/11 while Jason went inside to buy water. A twenty-something Eurochode walked up with his very pretty brown “girlfriend”. As he waited outside, she went inside and flashed me three massive IOIs. [2] The eurochode didn’t seem to notice, fumbling in his beige shorts for a cigarette.

I followed inside thirty seconds later and caught the girl perusing the tuna spread prepared sandwiches in the refrigerator. I waved a hand in front of her face to get attention.

“You speak English? Your boyfriend – boring!” I said, gesturing thumbs down. “Me, cool. Let’s get a drink.”

She gently pulled me further out of her sponsor’s line of site then we swapped Line ID contact info. Then I sidled up to Jason at the checkout and completed my exfiltration unnoticed. In Hitman it would be a S-ranked Silent Assassin score.

I banged the girl the next night. For free.

[1] If I ever remember who recommended it, I’ll murder them.
[2] I call these UpgradeOIs because it’s semi-pros trying to upgrade the quality of their sugar daddy.

If you liked this anecdote, just wait till you read me when I actually take time and effort to make it good. A Deplorable Cad coming soon!


  1. The ‘You Handsome man’ part had me dying, haha!

  2. I’m quite curious why you seem against the idea of paying for sex? The fact that you are ok with banging a semi pro for free (shoring) suggests you don’t have any issues on the principle of having sex with a prostitute (semi or otherwise) or the idea that many men have banged her or the higher risk of STD (these are the main reasons guys usually don’t like the idea of sex with hookers). Is this something to do with self worth? [Paying for sex is just masturbation. It means nothing. K.]

    • Perhaps a philosophical question but why does it make a difference? The physical act is the same, the chemical releases in the brain during it the same. I don’t get what the difference is?

      I’ve never slept with a hooker before so I’m just curious. It seems like an easy option which would let me concentrate on making money, lifestyle etc. [It’s not the same. The physical act, chemical releases and psychological significance are all different. Would you pay someone to laugh at your jokes and then claim the laughter is the same? K.]

      • As someone who’s banged lots of women from each category: free, semi pro, full whore, I can confirm what Krauser says. Sex has two rewards: physical and self esteem. Free sex gives you both, paid for sex only gives you the physical. He says paying is like masturbation, and I get hat he means. From self esteem point of view, walking off over video of a hot porn start is no different to paying her to fuck you.

      • I think you can attach whatever rewards you want to it as it depends where you are coming from. I think most guys feel a sense of guilt or shame in doing it, which is where they are missing the self esteem reward. It is just masturbation if all you are doing is literally handing over cash for the privilege of sticking your cock in her, like the cold form of prostitution we see in the West (and if you are just fucking any old whore in Thailand). Also if you have no chance with her on a normal level anyway. When it is no longer a literal handing over of cash and becomes more ‘gift’ or ‘tip’ orientated (if at all) and she is very much up for it, then it becomes a grey area as to what exactly you are paying for. Much like paying for dinner and drinks on a date. Would she have still slept with you if you didn’t pay? [This sounds like rationalisation to me. K.]

      • Lol probably sounds like complete horseshit, until you’ve been in that situation

    • Please stop using my name in vain like that.

      It’s most undignified!


      • Please do not post any more ‘prooves’ Jabba as I still have the memory of your butt grinding up and down in that creepy footage you posted on your blog a while back. Getting over this trauma will already require several sessions with a talented therapist (& really I should send you a bill). Thanks.

  3. If you’re looking for a club with mostly Thai’s you could try Route 66. Ask a TukTuk driver to take you there and the usual response is “why you go there? All Thai people”. Indeed and as such there don’t seem to be any pros. It’s kind of pay in; you get your money back in drinks vouchers. Fairly young crowd with three different music rooms and sizeable outdoor area. I pulled a girl one out of two nights; there’s a strong social circle element and a lot the Thai girls don’t want to talk to westerners… Good club not far from Sukhumvit.

    Are you doing any daygame in that area with all the shopping malls? What’s your verdict on it? [I went to Route 66 last Saturday. I enjoyed it but low quality girls and didn’t see anyone hooking up. I got the impression all the young girls were in big groups around tables, having fun. All the girls who looked available were pretty grotty whenever the strobe light caught them out. K.]

    • Unfortunately Route 66 is getting worse and worse each year after it got featured in Lonely Planet. Onyx 10m next to it is wayyy better. Even the Ratchada Soi 4 clubs like Sote and Snop. You can also check out Muse, Nunglen and Demo in Thonglor. All these are better than the Soi 11 Potemkins. And yes, all the girls are in tables in groups in these “Thai style” clubs. Doesn’t matter. When I was doing regular night game here, I’d go in sober and hit on these girls in groups. Thankfully this has acted as a built in barrier to entry preventing the place from becoming a tourist sausagefest, as the average foreigner will feel completely out of place here without a dance floor and 2010’s western dance music.

      I’d usually have to take a number or line id and go on dates as these girls esp the hotter ones don’t want to be seen going home with a stranger in front of their friends, though occasionally I’d get a ONS. Trick is to find a way to let her save face with her friends and give plausible deniability, not letting them think you 2 went home together. Of course non of this applies to nightclub crawling skanks. Yes, non-pro Thai girls are rather conservative. My ego and dick were pleasantly surprised to discover that plenty of lookers in their early to mid 20’s are virgins here, esp the ones that went to elite Unis here. Wip168 was the best afterhours club in Bangkok, but sadly it’s closed now.

  4. Every time I hear a white guy say he is going, or has gone, to Thailand, I assume this is exactly what he is after. Just reading these notes makes me want to wash my hands.

    I love Asian girls, but you make urban Thailand sound miserable and filthy. Grotty, sweaty Hell, with better food. Like an Asian Tijuana. *shiver*

    And in other news… Tokyo was lovely today. I talked to 20+ girls out daygaming. Didn’t remind me of TJ at all.

  5. Sounds like the average bloke there is a chubby western sex tourist.

    Is fucking “sideline girls” for free like sleeping with a prostitute? Would it get on your nerves after a while? Do you feel that the girls actually fancy you? Or are just angling for cash/resources down the line? I don’t know about other guys, but that would do my head in. I think your statement “Paying for sex is just masturbation. It means nothing.” sums it up nicely.

    You guys thinking about trying anywhere else in Asia that is a little less fucked up? [Sex with semi-pros was little different to sex with a fairly slutty non-pro. It was validation sex for them, not transactional. K.]

  6. Where do guys think is actually good to go in Asia where you don’t have the sex tourism taint? I’m heading to Tokyo later this spring for the first time to check it out, but curious as to what other guys on here think.

    • Tokyo Korea Taiwan china. Not the poorer countries.

      I’ve done ok in singapore. Mostly through online game. [I imagine I’d smash it in Japan, especially as I speak their language. The problem is they have same weather as Europe so going there means not going to Russia. As much as I love Japan and it’s people, Russian girls absolutely blow them away. K.]

      • I recently banged a 32 hb7 Japanese girl I met on public transport. Game was required. But when she opened up she was mental. Cooked for me, bought lingiere to model for me. Zero drama.

  7. I’ve been toying with the idea of a trip to Thailand for a few years now based on the stories I hear from those who have been. But Krauser’s post here confirms all my worst suspicions about the place. Think I’ll avoid.

  8. Thailand is the worst for pick up in clubs. The only girlsnwith money or the attitude are pros.

    Tinder and online game is much. Street because the girls on it once you filter out the whores and trannies are just decent girls…often true professionals or Asian expats (Korean Japanese girls) stuck there and are up for being gamed.

    Indonesia and Philippines are also bad. No girl goes to bars because it’s expensive and more importantly the clubs have a reputation for being exactly how you describe: Potemkin bars.

  9. Still sounds like a newbie review of Thailand. Lol @ the bit about the IOIs from the two-sets. Yeah, no shit. Many of those clubs are mostly full of Freelancers, as you should now well know. However…

    … on my last trip I frequented a well known Thai Pro nightclub. But the girl I left with was one of the best looking and best dressed girls in there and, most importantly, she was for free. A lot of decent looking guys (who clearly hit the gym too) are just standing or sitting around. I’m not as good looking as those guys, I’m older and my dancing is shit. Fortunately, not only are my Thai language skills good, but I know exactly what to say and how to play it. I even had her buying me drinks. In fact, I’ve rarely been to the nightclubs and left with a Freelancer. I don’t really go to them that much anyway. As I said before, it’s not really about where to look, it’s more of a case of how to look and where not to look (for the want of a better way of putting it).

    On the subject of fucking Pro’s in Thailand. I have hundreds of experiences that tell me more than just transactional sex took place. On many occasions no payment was even necessary. Anyone who fucks women regularly should know that some girls just want it. Paid for or not. When she loses her shit, her eyeballs roll back in her head and she gushes all over your fingers the moment you touch her, you just know this is not about the money. In fact many girls just see the money as a perk. Prostitution in Thailand (and culture and attitudes per se) is very different from that in the West, as you have already noted in your post. It’s definitely nowhere near as black and white as you believe it to be. It’s far from the cold, soulless and degrading experience of the West. If all you are looking for is a one night stand, then why not save both you and the girl a lot of trouble for the sake of an ego boost. It’s actually an age old argument among more experienced Thailand visitors and expats. As many will say, “you don’t pay the women for sex, you pay them to leave”. I’m confident I can find a new girl to sleep with everyday for free. Yet I still fuck Pro’s. Often I have had a freebie lined up but opted to fuck a Pro instead. Madness or experience? It’s a common misconception that men go to Thailand to whoremonger because they are hopeless with women. A large portion of them do go because of that and I’m sure you’ve spotted many of them, but there are a lot that go for different reasons. I understand for the integrity of your blog it’s best to stand your ground on the subject, but I do know what I’m talking about. To all the naysayers, you’ve never been there and you’ve never experienced it. You don’t know Thailand. On your analogy of paying someone to laugh at your jokes, what happens when they piss themself and you realise they genuinely find you funny anyway? Life isn’t black and white.

    • And on the other hand, your comments sound increasingly like what middle-aged, jaded self-proclaimed “Thailand veterans” that post on Thai Visa or Stickman would say. Almost always these are severely out of shape, poorly dressed divorcees who love to complain about Thailand in their own knitting circle jerk groups, and for the life of them can’t make any local friends.

      The young professional expats in the know as well as most younger high SMV locals here have a clear line between pros and non-pros. They usually have gfs or fwbs from their social circles or game, and some fuck massage parlor girls on the side for shits and giggles. However, they’re extremely clear that the latter is only transactional sex, no matter how into it the girls are or how good the “girlfriend experience” is.

      As an aside notice the contrast between this and the middle-aged local “sias”, who are known to sponsor Uni girls with presents – not so different from the scene in EE.

      As for “paying them to leave”, why don’t the “experienced Thailand visitors and expats” just use Tinder and not contact the girls again like what many young western guys do here? The obvious answer is the girls they can actually get for free are way way uglier than the pros.

      • He shoots. He misses.

        I’m none of those and don’t look at or post on any of those sites. I agree they are fat, butt hurt Westerners who are bottom feeders in their own countries. I am far from complaining as I love Thailand. I’m well under 40 and I don’t sponsor anyone.

        Those younger expats may have (temporary) SMV, but they don’t get to make the rules or decide what is and what isn’t. That is their opinion. Nothing more. I’m just pointing out that in my experience it’s a grey area.

        I use Tinder and TF. I know my SMV is quite high on those. Proof of the pudding was ‘shoring’ one of the young ‘models’ from one of Pattaya’s high class agogos. Meeting up with girls, feeding them lies to sleep with them and running away is the stuff of little boys. Just wait until they’ve paid some motorbike taxi drivers to beat the living shit out of you and you might change your mind on that one. Be honest with the girls.

        I understand where you are coming from if I fit into the category you described, but understand I’m coming from a different perspective. [I’m not taking a side on this but I very much hope you two keep arguing. I enjoy fireworks. If it gets boring I’m going to have to return to trolling Deepak. K.]

      • Nah. Gonna disappoint and leave it there. I think I’ve given more than my 2 penneth worth anyway. Let’s hear some other views. (Enjoy your trip btw).

    • Chris your posts on this topic are so gamma. This supposed expertise on picking up Asian sluts and whores isn’t something to feel proud about. Any white dude who exclusively chases Asian girls (aka yellow fever) are IMO by default picking low hanging fruit. It’s all slightly embarrassing.

      The only reason they’d do this is because they can’t get any high value (or perhaps anyone) in the West or Eastern Europe. It’s sad stuff.

      On the topic of picking up hookers and claiming they banged you for more than money I think you’re bullshitting yourself (ego defense). Reason being is if anyone had the choice they would rather bang a non hooker than a hooker all factors being equal. If you could get a regular girl you would. (I give Krauser a pass on his recent lay report as it sounds like he is walking around blind without a cane in Thailand and doesn’t know where the hell hes going. Sounds like he got talked into going to this shithole).

      If you want to get Sun during winter and hot girls there are much nicer places than SE Asia which is squalid, dirty and depressing. Walking around in the company of sweaty fat Middle Aged sad bastards who can’t get laid anywhere else (as well as a bunch of pedos who have a free for all there) is disgusting.

      • And your clichéd comments about Thailand only go to show you’ve spent little time there or never even been. If you read my comments through again properly you might understand I’m in no way trying to dress it up as “expert” pick up. I’m just pointing out it is what it is. It’s a very different place to anywhere in the West, that might seem on the surface quite easy to find women, but is a ball ache trying to get to the truely high value ones when you realise what’s actually going on. I’m commenting on here, as I find it interesting that a PUA would pick Thailand as a destination for pick up, when they regularly choose destinations like EE the rest of the time.

        If you are trying imply that somehow you the expert on the subject and are some sort of elitist because you pick up exclusively in the West, then please pull your head out of your arse. If that was so you wouldn’t be posting on here (no disrepect Nick). I’ve met and know guys who are genuinely good with women and they have nothing to do with PUA, are anonymous and don’t post on the internet. Go figure. You are an intermediate at best or you wouldn’t be here. You are clearly under the misconception that all men only go to Thailand because they are useless with women. I know for a fact that isn’t the case. You know jack shit about Thai culture and attitudes or what even goes on there.

        Trouble is, your view of hookers (and views in general) is based very squarely within the Western world. Which is the cold and degrading act of handing your cash over in the exchange for some poor quality sex. I’m not condoning this at all and pretending it isn’t.

        Consider the following… and before you just blurt out an answer, think about both involved. Whatever your answer, think about at what point it would become the opposite. And if validation is happening for one, is it happening for the other –

        1. You visit a prostitute (East or West it doesn’t matter). You’ve paid up and done the deed. While getting dressed you end up kissing again, which then leads to more sex (once, twice or however many pops you can manage). She insists no further payment is necessary. The sex after the initial paid for act is for free or the whole encounter is just at a discounted rate?

        2. Again, you are with a prostitute. You do the deed, but an anomaly occurs during your encounter that results in not having to pay. Maybe she liked it. Maybe she damaged something small in the room and is embarrased to ask for payment. The intended act is transactional but the resulting feeling is that it was for free. Or is it?

        3. You have been visiting a prostitute for some time. You become friends. She has given you a few for ‘free’ (see 1.). You have become very close and she decides she wants to quit her job and be with you. She moves in with you and gets a straight job. This is now a legit relationship for free or pre paid sponsorship?

        4. You are a dating a girl. You haven’t slept with her yet. But you feel it’s close. You have been out on several dates. She never pays and always insists it’s the man’s duty to foot the bill and spoil her. Eventually you get her into bed. This is all you were really interested in doing with her. The sex is for free or paid for?

        5. You are in a relationship. You live together. You work, she doesn’t. You cook, she doesn’t. You clean, she doesn’t. You have sex twice a week. Free or paid for?

        6. You are married. The sex has become very mundane over the years. Wifey’s birthday is coming up. About a week beforehand she comes onto you and gives you some very ‘special’ sex. Transactional or validational?

        7. You aren’t very good with women. You shudder at the thought of visiting prostitutes. You come across a ‘system’ on the internet that gives you a chance of hooking up with women, rather than just wanking over them online. You now spend up to 8 hours a day running up and down cold, wet streets for the sake of a phone number or a few narrow squeaks. Sometimes it might lead to sex. Legit or rationalised? A thousand monkeys with a thousand typewriters? (I’m in no way denying chatting women up on the street isn’t very real when done right).

        8. You are dating a girl. She’s a great girl and you end up spending a lot of time together. She even splits the bill or pays while out. However, you are having a hard time getting her into bed. It’s been 8 dates already ffs. You know she does eventually want it. The more she doesn’t put out and comes up with excuses, the more focused you become on getting her into bed. So you persist with her until eventually you get her to sleep with you. Transactional or validational?

        9. You are married. You are wealthy. You wasn’t always this well off and know the other side of the coin very well too. Your wealth comes from a high profile career. Your wife on the other hand doesn’t work. You met after you became well off. She insists she loves you for who you are, but you can’t help wondering if she is with you only for your money. You will never know the truth, but what rewards are there during and after sex?

        10. You are in a relationship. You have regular sex with your girlfriend. But you know she’s not really into it. Deep down you feel she is only doing it because she doesn’t want to feel lonely if you dump her. Transactional or validational?

        11. You are married. Over the years your wife has become quite unhygenic in her nether region. Your relationship is suffering because of it. You know she also feels unsatisfied but you still have strong feelings for her. You have been given a work opportunity for you both to move away. It’s good news for you but she isn’t keen. She wants you to give her oral sex as a way of trying to persuade her. Transactional or validational?

        12. You have been with your girlfriend/wife for a year or more. The sex is ok but you feel like you should be doing it more. She brings up the subject of having kids. You aren’t entirely sold on the idea but you know it will give your sex life a much needed lift. She also feels you probably are only agreeing for the sake of the extra sex. You both agree to go ahead with it but deep down you both know you are only doing it for different personal gains. No money is involved at all, but what are the rewards?

        13. You stop a cute looking girl in the street in while in Thailand. You get a very strong response and she seems very keen to go out with you for drinks later. You meet up, have a few drinks and end up back in your room together. After some very explosive sex, she starts to come on strong. Telling you she feels like she loves you. She also tells you she is poor and so is her family. She has always wanted to meet a hansum farang man like you to take care of her, her baby and her family. Transactional or validational?… Welcome to Thailand! 😛

        (A variation on the last one would be waking up in the morning and she holds her hand out saying “you give me how much?”)

        In actuality, there aren’t any clear cut answers to any of them and there is certainly no line. At one end you have a fine slither called “Free” (Free = 100% validation from both parties with minimum effort and zero transactional acts). At the other end is “Paid for” (see third para). Inbetween the two it descends into grey and makes up 99.9% of scenarios most blokes find themselves in with women, including yourself. They may lean towards one end or the other, but are rarely clear cut. Some of the above even falls into the dark grey in the middle. It doesn’t matter what label a woman is given or gives herself. They aren’t permanent and can be removed anytime.

        Throw Thai logic and culture into the equation and you will be left scratching your head. There should be a sign up at immigration in Bangkok saying “TiT: Please leave your Western views here and collect what remains of them when you depart”. If in doubt, try walking down a busy short time street in Pattaya like Soi 6 and refer to the girls as ‘prostitutes’. You may well wake up in hospital.

      • @Chris – Fucking hell I think all those examples are just the kind of crap that fat sad guys try to tell themselves to deal with their fears about the truth.

        The real acid test is – can a guy pick up attractive girls in their 20s in the West? If he can’t then attractive girls anywhere who are giving it to him for free are almost certainly after something. Worse, if a guy isn’t attractive, then as soon as he is not around for a minute an attractive girl with options will be satisfying her sexual needs… probably on the end of Krauser’s dick.

      • They are just examples. My point is that none of them can be given a clear label as ‘free’ or ‘paid for’. Each involves some kind of transaction even if it’s not monetary. The chemical releases Krauser mentions above existed long before money. Including the transactional ones. Again, your views are planted squarely within the modern Western world. You draw your own lines of what you think free means based on your own subjective point of view. I’m not expecting anyone on a PUA blog to agree with me. You can’t educate pork.

        I’ve not condoned anywhere on here that going to Thailand is on par with pulling a hardened, attractive, young, Western women. So let’s lets stop with the accusations that I’m pretending it is.

        In answer to your acid test, along with just about anyone else who posts on here if they are honest with themselves, yes sometimes. I go to Thailand because I like it and I have connections there.

        On the subject of being sad, don’t you think brown nosing Krauser is just as low? That’s at least the second comment I’ve read on this post guilty of that.

      • Chris, I think you’ve managed to out gamma even my old posts with that laundry list of rationalisations about why you’re not just another sweaty old white guy paying poor third world women to have sex with them. The whole thing is loathsome, even I suspect to you, which is why your ego is generating all these mind bending reasons to escape what you have become. Its all very sad indeed. [I love gamma vs gamma fights. Chris, your turn…. K.]

      • Right well my inner gamma couldn’t leave it there and I feel compelled now to explain why your rationalisations around hookers are flawed LoL

        Essentially a hooker has already slept with many (many) men who disgust her. Therefore, even if she does sleep with you for free for whatever reason you conjure up it still doesn’t mean much. Reason is simply because it doesn’t mean much to her. She might fuck you because you showed her a small act of kindness all the other cunts she’s used to putting up with didn’t, maybe you made her a cup of tea or perhaps you just didn’t stink of BO. Point is the value she places on sex is close to 0. Therefore you talking about how much of a part money played in fucking a hooker is an academic discussion.

        A hooker is the reverse of a virgin. There’s a good reason PUAs feel it worthwhile to point out when they get laid with a virgin. Part of the reason is because the girl places such a high value on sex if she’s a virgin. A girl with a few sexual partners values it less, and a slut is even further down the continuum towards the hooker previously mentioned.


      • @Krauser: Thanks, Nick. Glad it’s not just me who thinks this is all a case of the pot calling the kettle black.

        @Zatara: Now who’s rationalising… Your talk of virgins only confirms to me you aren’t very experienced. As no man who fucks a lot of women will really want to bother with them. They aren’t a good fuck. Also not all hookers sleep with lots of men and a particular kind of hooker rarely has sex with her customers. You are generalising with the typical Western hooker you would find in UK. Women place different values on sex depending on how much they enjoy it. Doesn’t matter how much she has done it and has nothing to do with being a hooker or a virgin. Women can be complete nymphos well into their 30s and 40s. 99% of the men hookers fuck aren’t very good at it. 30 seconds and it’s all over. Some might last 5-10 mins. I obviously know this first hand from talking to them.

        Yes my opinions will come across as fucked up on here. But Thailand is a very fucked up place. Many Western views and opinions just don’t translate there.

      • Chris .. its fascinating to watch the ego try and protect itself … 1) on the virgins, its really not just me who thinks they are more attractive than a washed out slut. Have a look across various ancient civilisations to see the value they place on virginity. Even now (male) heirs to royal families usually have an unwritten rule that they only can marry a virgin (this was part of the reason Charles was encouraged to marry Diana instead of the other women he had on the go at the time). For a modern curiosity, ask the adherents of Islam why the motivation for up and coming martyrs is 72 virgins and not 72 sluts LoL According to you the sluts would be better in bed after all!

        Ill save you the hassle (and a punch up outside your local mosque) and explain to you the reason is that men have a natural abhorrence for women who have a promiscuous nature as they a) have to compete with other men and their sperm for potential offspring b) they might be cuckolded and waste resources as a result.

        2) A hooker who doesn’t sleep with a lot of men clearly isn’t a very good hooker. Its her profession and business and as profit is her incentive one would expect her to attempt to maximise it. Would she have much quality control? I doubt it otherwise shes not going to do a lot of trade where the majority of her customer base are self selected as being sex – unworthy. A hooker who doesn’t sleep with men isn’t really a hooker in my book and not very useful for guys like you who want to get laid by paying for it so we should just disregard this subset.

        3) On a philosophical point, you said that in Thailand or Asia “many Western views and opinions just don’t translate there”. There is a fundamental truth which exists irrelevant of peoples views. In this instance that truth is that you are paying for sex, in part or fully, because you cant find decent quality women anywhere else. If you don’t have any other options I understand why you do this but don’t try and bullshit guys about how its all a grey area and there’s more to it than money etc. Its really embarrassing.

      • Ego? I already said I fucked hoes. Where is the ego in that? You are mistaking me for someone who gives a shit. Lollllll

        From that response alone it would make sense you are one of the 99% of ‘daygamers’ and Krausers fanbase that come from the middle east. If you aren’t then you certainly belong there. No, most men are not interested in virgins. Perhaps your interest in them lies in finding someone close to your own experience, or lack of. Let’s hear some factual lay reports of legitimate lays you’ve had with hot English (not European) women or GTFO. [My fanbase is most certainly nowhere near 99% middle east. By all means have at it against Zatara but don’t try painting my audience like Deepak’s freakish hordes. K.]

      • i’d say chris is almost certainly not “gamma” although he did himself no favours with that list, which was ill advised and mis-interpreted,
        nor by getting dragged into a wrestling match with a greasy pig (you wrestle with a pig and at the end both of you are covered in mud but only one is happy)

        OTOH, zatara gives himself away with every post he makes.. whether or not he is “gamma” is irrelevant, as are these labels. but he certainly isn’t a guy who fucks a lot of girls, whether for free or not.

        here’s a quick story to demonstrate the difference in mindsets, which could be about two guys called zatara and chris,, but is actually about my buddy and I.

        we end up in bar in hong kong, after midnight. it’s a wednesday, the place is not busy.i try to avoid the advances of the older, more openly hookerish girls, and concentrate on my beer.
        as i’ve stated previously, i’m generally not into paying for sex, and buddy “has a girlfriend” and also doesn’t have the correct mindset to go with a hooker.
        however, buddy’s eyes set upon a beautiful indonesian girl (very hot, and classy looking).
        outside, smoking a cig he won’t shut up about her.
        i encourage him “just talk to her you never know you might get it for free” but he’s very reluctant.

        eventually, inside, he starts talking to her. buys her a drink, cozies up next to her at the bar.

        after another guy we picked up goes off with a Vietnamese girl (perhaps the hottest girl i’ve ever laid my two eyes upon) i’m left alone.
        buddy’s girl’s friend starts trying to get my attention so … yeah i’ll chat to her and drink my beer. why not? (IMO better looking and a better body than his girl, too)
        turns out this girl is cool. i quite like her. OBV i’m playing on easy level but so what? she’s got shit to say, and i’m enjoying talking to her rather than nurse my beer and watch buddy being beta around this hooker. i’m also enjoying the verbal jiujitsu and “game” about not buying her a drink without looking like scrooge.
        during a break buddy tells me “she’s only here on holiday! just visiting! i think it’s on! we’re going to the beach tomorrow! ” poor fool ..

        i’m like “great, get her back to our hotel. i’ll take the bathroom you two can have the bed” but i know what’s up. i just don’t care.
        comes time to leave and now – here’s the fuck up – i guess she says she’ll go with him but he has to pay and buddy starts NEGOTIATING. (i’m …. 50/50 i could have banged my girl for free).


        he starts asking about how much, for how long etc etc

        i’m just trying to distract and extract. in the end i tell my girl “do you think i’m stupid? do i look like a fool? i know how the world works, i know in the end some kind of transaction has to take place, but i know you wanna fuck me and you know i wanna fuck you. let’s go and have some fun.” or words to that effect.

        we walk back, stopping for drinks at a 7-11. i’m treating my girl like some fun little filly i just picked up. having fun and messing around.
        buddy is treating his girl like a hooker. arguing about money and whatever.

        we get back, quick drink, then i pull my girl into the bathroom and proceed. i haven ‘t even begun when there is some commotion. a knock at the door. some talking in their native language. i dunno… i go back at it, explosive sex (and if you think i don’t know the difference between a girl who loves it and a girl who’s getting paid than you haven\t fucked more than twenty girls) and after more than an hour we shower up and exit the bathroom. buddy is alone.
        my girl hangs around for about 20 minutes, chatting, and just being cool. i tuck away the “payment” in her bag so as to not make it a big deal. she leaves and i get the story from buddy.

        “oh i came too fast and then she wouldn’t even cuddle. she said an hour but then she just left, what a bitch! she said she’d go to the beach with me! she lied! we had an agreement! she couldn’t even stay with me for a few minutes! ok so it’s my fault but she could at least lay for a while with me i paid for an hour!”


        guaranteed if i’d come in a minute or two, my girl would have stuck around for round two.
        i still talk to her now and then. she’s cool

        well, i’ve had more bad experiences than good when it comes to paid sex, which is why i’m generally against it.

        contrast that story with a couple of chinese hookers i’ve banged.

        first prostitute i ever fucked gave up after half an hour. i had to go and negotiate with her boss to finish me off. for some reason she wanted my phone number after.
        my friend was outside the “room” calling into her to “use two hands!” lol

        another time me and another buddy, drunk and high .. “i’m gonna buy you a hooker!” i tell him.
        now, he knows the places, so off we go. the hot girl at the front is not the one you end up with! but i’m satisfied with my choice. we go into a little private room and get down to business. my friend goes into another with his choice.
        just as i’m getting started the door opens and my friend’s girl comes in. (later i found out he did a “splash and dash” and they all laughed at him on his way out)
        she leaves the door open and starts rubbing me and making “sexy” noises. this shit was hilarious to me., i grab her and start trying to get her involved too. i was having a great time.
        now OBVIOUSLY the second girl was just trying to help her coworker by getting me excited so i would hurry up and finish. but so what? it was still a fun experience, definitely a bit sleazy, But FAR less sleazy for me than it was for my splash and dash friend (because of the different mindsets). and VERY different from what chris is trying to explain, and what i talked about with the indo girl above.

        i’m almost 42, i recently finished up a long term fuck buddy arrangement with a 23 year old, hot, blonde blue eyed american. i have game (credit where it’s due, in some part thanks to krauser). i fuck a lot of chicks. calling it “yellow fever” is insulting. the average western chick is well BELOW average. the AVERAGE filipina or indonesian or thai or vietnamese is a 9/10 in any british city.
        the vietnam girl i mentioned in that story was stunning. zatara would jizz in his pants at the thought of putting his dick near her. [I enjoyed this story but you flagrantly overrate asian girls. There’s not a single 9 in Asia, never mind the average which is closer to a 5. I’ve barely seen a single Thai 8 in over a month here. I’m all in favour of your type of adventures and have had a bunch of them myself but lets not muddy the waters. It’s whoring with gooks. Great fun, but it is what it is. K.]

      • Why are you encouraging zatara bashing on here Krauser LoL

        Chris, yes you admit that you pay Asian prostitutes for sex but you claimed there was more to it than just money. In other words you have fallen into the old ‘punter’ trap of believing the ‘sex worker’ actually liked you (enjoyed the experience).

        Most hookers even in the West know that to gain repeat business you need to show (feign) some affection/interest in the other party. This is the infamous ‘girlfriend experience’. It’s all part of the service and you as the customer are expected to (literally) buy into this role play. In Asia I think they are understand this nuance well. This may explain why that amusing. cliche for a hooker soliciting a western customer is “me love you long time”. Note she uses the word “love” and not “fuck”. Your issue is that you take this literally and actually believe it LoL

        Zatara (I’m not middle eastern but Indian born in England).

      • @ bowler hat .. Oh dear I’ve must have touched a nerve with all the sad, sweaty middle aged white guys going to Asia to fuck desperately poor sex workers for money LoL It’s so so sad.

        You’re boasting about fucking an American girl! LMAO. I’m actually sitting here laughing out loud. I wouldn’t go near an American girl, they are invariably entitled, loud, unintelligent, boring, masculine and disgust me (same goes for Aussie chicks).

        Anyway as I’m a gamma in recovery I want to leave on a positive caring sharing note. Tip: you and Chris should get together as you have much in common, you can lie to each other and not just to yourselves and maybe obtain a group discount at the whore houses you both have to visit LoL [I do hope my other readers are enjoying this back and forth. K.]

      • point proven

      • Going with chris and bowlerhat on this. I’ve been to thailand a few times and some things aren’t so straightforward. Zatara just sounds like a hater.

      • @Chris For starters, where in my post did I say you’re one of those out of shape loser expats? What I did say however, was that you’re sounding increasingly like them. As an example, when I say you’re sounding more and more like my mother, that certainly doesn’t imply that I think you’re actually my mother. Isn’t that obvious? What’s sadder IMO, is a youngish guy having those sexpats’ views and selling himself short by shoring and whoring instead of doing game with non-pros. I sure do hope you don’t end up like those pot-bellied men who congregate around Nana a few years down the road.

        Again, my point still stands – all the high SMV locals and young expat professionals game non-pros and avoid whores and Potemkin clubs like the plague. Tell me, why are 99% of whores in tourist areas from the Issan region and have rougher darker skin? They’re the lowest in the totem pole. The regional accent quite a number of them have when they speak Thai is the equivalent of how UK chavs speak. This is the Thailand hierarchy for those who actually have game:

        Daygaming non-pros > Nightgaming in non-pro nightclubs > Tindering > Thaifriendly > Shoring from Levels > Paying for it, even if she gives you a 2nd round freebie

        The reason some pros are willing to give out freebies to younger men is that 90% of who they fuck are severely overweight geriatric retirees. Just check out the average whoremonger in Thailand. Yes, you younger shorers are a huge upgrade for them, but guys with real game won’t touch whores with a ten foot pole, and all your numbered examples listed above don’t apply to them. How bout this example instead-

        You open a 20 year old Chulalongkorn Uni student in Siam Center, and got her line id. A few days later you meet up in a cafe, then bounce to a nearby bar. She doesn’t drink a lot, and insists on footing the bill since you already did so at the cafe, even though she’s still a student. She’s upper middle class – not poor, and is not specifically looking for a “hansum farang”. She refuses to kiss and kino, even in private. You manage to fuck her on the next date, and she earns a spot in your rotation. From time to time, she badgers you to let her drive you upcountry for a trip together in her dad’s car. And this goes without saying – she doesn’t sell sex on the side, and doesn’t have a sponsor.

        And you should know better as someone who speaks Thai – The so-called gray area many sexpats refer to only exists in Western punters’ minds; in mainstream Thai society, if a girl exchanges sex for money or gifts, she’s a prostitute plain and simple, is permanently tainted, and for the rest of her life is only suitable for use as a cumdumpster. Doesn’t matter if she only does it after work or wants to hang out with you after sex – a hoe is a hoe. Getting freebies cause you’re not 65 and overweight is fine, but is nowhere close to game, and won’t work on non-pros (99% of thais). This is perfectly obvious if you have a local social circle here.

        My suggestion for anyone in Thailand who actually wants to game: Go to the non-pro clubs (I listed many above) or daygame at the malls. Or course, if you want to do a 0 effort vacation and save the energy for Europe (which seems to be what Krauser is doing) just swiping on Tinder is fine if you’re young and reasonably fit, but don’t pretend there’s any game in that or shoring.

      • @Bowler hat – It’s an interesting set of questions – are hookers just hookers, or is there a smooth spectrum all the way from hooker to girlfriend with gold digger somewhere in between?

        To be fair, I suppose a guy could be cool or whatever else you think is attractive to girls, and get a hooker to want to hang around with him for free… but then wouldn’t he have just performed the fairly non achievement of having an ex-hooker as a girlfriend?

        And what kind of a start would that be to any kind of relationship? What kind of shit would being a hooker do to to a girls mind and personality? I know if you watch a Hollywood film, all Hookers have a secret heart of gold. But what fraction of a percent of the time is that ever true in reality?

        Your Hong Kong story sounds like by not being a complete cock, you got a girlfriend experience. Would that girl spend time on the beach with you the next day without expecting a payday for some sexual service latter in the day? I think Zatara finds it ‘sad’ that a guy might think he has a good chance of this, when in reality the hooker just wants to get more money out of him.

        We’re all getting older and saggier all the time though, so I will refrain from laughing at those guys who haven’t done anything wrong, but are just in the next decade of life from me, because I will be in that shitty situation soon enough.

      • @jim

        i’ve stated several times here that in general i’m against paying for sex, not on any moral grounds, i’ve done it and don’t have any judgments on guys who do. but i’ve had more mediocre experiences than good experiences so i’d rather not. however it’s not always shitty and sleazy and can sometimes be a cracking good time. as i said, a lot of it comes down to your mindset.

        i won’t bother addressing the rest of your questions as they are irrelevant. but thanks for at least trying to have a discussion and not just being a dick.


      • @yolomofo: I actually agree with most of what you are saying and think for the best part we are arguing on cross wires. The pot belly brigade are the ones denying that there is such a thing as free sex. I wasn’t saying that at all. In fact @Jim Bacon puts it much better by saying that it’s a spectrum. Your hierachy somewhat confirms that too. Newbies will be faced with the lower class girls, which don’t all come across as, and will deny being, a straight up hoe. They come in many different forms. You can fuck and delete as someone suggested to avoid her playing “the long game” with you and kid yourself it chalks up as a genuine notch. But arguably she was only fucking you for to get something out of it down the line. I hope my muddled ramblings are remotely clearer!

        @bowler hat: Thanks again for the solidarity. And agree that list didn’t help my case at all. I liked your stories.

        @Mattler: Thanks for the solidarity.

  10. i’m generally against paying for sex but i’ve done a bit of mongering around asia and chrs is spot on here.

  11. @nick,

    . this is a matter of personal preference; taste. i’m english and not very interested in banging girls who look like my sister.
    i was back home recently – slim pickings. i might have seen five bangable (of-age) girls in a week.
    also went to finland, and was pretty disappointed there, too. one imagines you may have a different experience. (as a side note, the revolting blue-haired finnish teenager with the fucked-up grill i was sitting next to on the plane referred to herself as “girls like me. you know, a 9/10”. this is a girl to whom i would not give the time of day were i not her captive audience, and i fucking love teenage girls) but i walk around bangkok or manila and see dozens of girls who give me the “dna tug”.
    one man’s meat …

    anyway .. not trying to muddy waters or dress a sheep as a lamb or make a purse out of a sow’s ear or whatever – it is what it is. i just wrote out that story to illustrate a point. the chinese prostitute<my hand.
    but there was nothing masturbatory about the indonesian

    • my buddy, however, probably wishes he’d jerked off and saved his money. the difference is in the frame and mindset.

      it’s like porn. if you’re a pornstar you are fucking a girl who’s being paid to fuck you. it doesn’t mean the sex can’t be great. it doesn’t mean that both parties can’t enjoy it. or because she’s being paid then it automatically removes any passion or excitement she might have.
      you’ve seen porn where the girl didn’t care and was just getting a paycheck, and you’ve seen porn where there was obvious passion between the “performers” and it takes experience with girls to be able to see the difference. i think ultimately this is the point chris was trying to make and
      this is why zatara doesn’t get laid. he points fingers and calls names and holds girls in his judgement, without realizing that she’s just a girl, and all girls are all those things

      anyway, i’m blathering now.

      good day, sirs!

      • & Bowler Hat … you want to pretend a washed out Philippino hooker you pay to fuck who 5 other guys have fucked before you is “just a girl”, conflating all women without any discernment or judgement of quality? Utter self delusion.

        Do you seriously think this is the same as having a young European / Russian cat walk model choose to sleep with you? If this is beyond your value and game fine but don’t try and make out like your an expert on women and are living the dream. Its pure bottom world wretchedness.

        Have some fucking pride man, it would be better to at least try and play the game and fail than what you do which is whoremonger. Look in the mirror.

    • @ bowler hat .. you think the girls in Bangkok and Manila are hot? Manila? Seriously? Philippino women are probably the ugliest chicks in Asia bar none.

      this is what you find there … & that’s probably above average …


      You don’t like the girls from wherever you’re from. Where’s home .. Yeti country?


  12. Put what yolomofo says at the top end and what bowler hat says here at the bottom end and there’s much of the spectrum. With gold diggers in the middle.

    I think quality of women is subjective. Agree that most of them aren’t much to look at, but it’s the same in many countries. Ducking your head into some of the soapies in Ratchada/Huay Kwang often enough might help on your view. The real stunners are not always in there but I’ve seen a few. Some places are said to have ex Penthouse models, but you’ll have to dig deep to take them upstairs. You’re under no obligation to choose a girl so are free to just walk in and leave again. It will at least confirm these girls do in fact exist.

    • Chris I think you’re on the wrong site dude! This is where guys come to learn how to attract hotter, tighter, younger girls (without paying). Youre still dispensing advice on back street Asian whorehouses. I think you’re looking for ‘punterlink’.

      • Of course it’s not my blog and not my role to moderate discussion (but as a recovering gamma I felt the need to throw my weight around behind a keyboard) LoL

  13. Sex with hookers is too impersonal. But I wouldn’t mind using my status as a foreigner to sleep with poor girls. Of course they’d be doing it for a better life, but hopefully love could blossom. That’s real enough for me.

    I understand not everyone’s into Asian girls, but I find some of them quite hot. Plus their small size (particularly their nether regions) makes me feel like The Man haha.

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