First day at the gym

December 21, 2015
krauserpua

Little Scott turns up for school again, early one summer morning. He’s twelve years old and he likes the lessons. Only problem is every now and then one of the other boys bullies him. It’s not a persistent problem but every now and then he gets pushed around and occasionally punched on the back of the head and laughed at. It could be worse. The thing is, he’s sick of getting into disagreements with the other boys. Any time he speaks his mind, one of the tougher boys will start escalating it. He knows where that eventually leads – shoves, punches and kicks. So he just nips it in the bud early and avoids disagreement. It doesn’t feel right, bottling that up and letting people walk over him.

He sees boxing on TV. The local star has just won the British title and is being interviewed post fight. The champ says he got into boxing because he’d been bullied at school. Something clicks in Scott’s mind and he pesters his dad to let him try out at the local gym.

A week later Scott shows up with his shorts and t-shirt. He’s been freaking out about it all week, nervous about jumping into something so new and scary. Yet, immediately, he loves the atmosphere. There’s the incessant rattle of the speedball rapping against the board. A rhythmic swish and clatter as an amateur fighter whips the leather jump rope under his feet round after round. Even the smell of dried sweat and aging leather is good. Scott loves it.

The coach comes over, makes a bit of small talk to put the new boy at ease, then sends him to get changed. The kids class is about to start. The coach knows when a boy has come in due to bullying or a general sense of physical inadequacy. What’s new to Scott is just a hundreth time for the coach. Scott looks at him with a mix of hope and trust – this coach is an experienced guy who will show him the way to toughen up. Scott’s ready and willing to work as hard as he must.

The group starts the warm up, stretching off. A bit of jogging on the spot, then star jumps, press ups and squat thrusts. Scott is struggling with the latter, getting his feet mixed up and clipping his heels. The coach walks over and has a look, but doesn’t offer any technical advice. He’ll figure it out for himself.

“Keep it up, Scott.” he encourages.

Ten minutes later they are all in front of the mirrors, shadow boxing. Some of the other kids are bobbing and weaving in a rough approximation of the older more experienced boys. Scott is ill-coordinated and doesn’t really know how to stand. Most of the boys have their left foot forward but a few have their right foot out instead. What’s that about?

“Don’t worry about it” says the coach. “Just stand however feels best”

So Scott awkwardly pushes his hands out in front in something looking a bit like a punch and tries bobbing his head. It’s a bit tough. He falls off balance a few times. He tries left foot forward, right foot forward and also standing square-on.

Another ten minutes pass and now the boys have all pulled a pair of boxing gloves out of the communal box and are each standing in front of a punch bag. The round bell rings and Scott starts cuffing his a bit, then looking around at the other boys. One of the older lads, a competitive fighter, is punching away on the top-bottom bag, swaying left and right to dodge as it springs back at him after every punch. Scott turns back to his heavy bag and tries that. It doesn’t move much – it’s not the same bag, after all.

“Nice one Scott” says the coach and pats him on the shoulder. “Keep it up”

Twenty minutes later the coach is pulling a couple of boys out of training and sending them into the ring to spar.

“Scott” shouts the coach. “Let’s see how you look in the ring. Do you fancy a go?”

“Um, ok” Scott nervously replies.

He steps through the ropes and sees his opponent across the ring, a boy of similar size but who has obviously been training a lot longer. Scott had noticed him hitting the bag with fluid hard punches, sending it flying backwards with a meaty thwack. He’s a bit nervous.

“What should I do?” Scott asks.

The coach smiles, pats him on the shoulder again with a kind gesture.

“Don’t worry about technique. Just go be your self. Be natural.”

Ten minutes later, Scott wakes up on the table in the dressing room with a bloody nose and mild headache.

“I guess I’m not cut out for boxing” he concludes. “I’ll just put up with the shit at school.”

55 Comments

  1. Lol at the post. Nice. Funny thing, I just posted about the pussification and training of boys. Our posts are tangential/congruent, without overlapping.

  2. So much for just be natural eh. As for use of routines I’ve applied “Becksters 3” routine learnt from Tom Torero at the Overkill seminar twice now, admittedly the first time it didn’t go so well but didn’t bust the date, 2nd time I got laid. [It’s almost as if seduction is a skill that can be learned! K.]

    • *That should read Outlaw Daygame seminar [BTW, I updated your comment about Hungarian bird to reflect the fact that the evidence verified your story. K.]

      • Much appreciated, I’ll take an 8, I know you’re very selective about what you call a 9. Keep in mind that I’ve spent the last 8 months trawling the streets of London, I’d say she’s a 9 by London standards! Though possibly not by Eastern Europe standards. I plan to have more to judge by in a years time. [She was a very good score. I’d have patted myself on the back if I’d been the one fucking her. K.]

    • Beckster is another grubby scammer. Tales of his crude rip off tactics & poor treatment of previous students are all over the place (he was working the scam end of the Pickup Industry even before ‘The Game’ as far as I can work out so in a way he is the godfather of all the London based scammers).

      Unfortunately, Tom gave him credit in his book as well which probably sent more students (victims) his way (he also has a connection to mystery bizarrely .. probably supplies the club entry & white stuff I would guess). Z [I have zero respect for Beckster the man. His entire system is based on gaming guys, milking them of cash, and value-tapping them to provide girls so he doesn’t have to cold approach. Extremely dark triad. However – and this is important – everyone I know who has hung out with him said he is good at fucking club tarts. K.]

      • He sounds like one sick puppy. I could well imagine a seedy wastrel like him doing well with dirty club tarts … happy to leave him to it frankly, a reminder to never go to grotty London nightclubs just in case you have the misfortune to rub shoulders with him.

  3. The story tells the morale very well. Only you forgot all the lying bitches and manginas young and old that said over and over in innumerable wordings, “You’re either born with ‘it’ or not.” Intellectual success and standards scare the subhumans. No way did that kid conclude all by himself that he just didn’t have what it takes. They purposely did not give him a functional understanding of the social power struggle by giving him mental abuse in subtle and crass ways but always the same false message of not good enough when the truth was he was too good, too trusting, too cooperative, too civilized with the uncivilized, and a threat to their lower order of human nature.

  4. Very nicely done.

    Happy Christmas

  5. I’m begging for some hilarity!

    Thoughts on the following 90s rock stars?

    Brett Anderson
    Justine Frischmann
    Richard Ashcroft
    Damon Albarn
    Graham Coxon
    The Gallagher Brothers
    Jarvis Cocker
    Thom Yorke
    Jonny Greenwood

  6. The natural school of game is a reaction to the scripted routines & automaton like behaviour which pickup became negatively associated with. Game in the mainstream consciousness comes from stumbling across the book ‘The Game’ and VH1’s ‘The Pickup Artist’ along with perhaps a few other references in newspapers and magazines etc. Many potential students would be turned off by the obvious weirdness of what they see so this ‘natural’ school seems like an attractive ‘normal’ route to getting girls. It also attracts the guys who don’t actually want to change themselves in any way as its more comfortable to hear just ‘be yourself’. Thirdly it offers a fall back to the guys who have tried game, found it difficult and achieved little tangible results (most guys). It is currently the optimal position to take in the market. The cynical US opportunists at RSD worked this out a while back and led the charge … as with most commercial endeavours we got our imitators across the pond slightly later on.

    The two logical points which they will never be able to answer is:

    1) If just being yourself (natural) ‘worked’ why haven’t guys who come into game been getting laid before? {Were they just a bit shy?}
    2) If its all about just being yourself what would a commercial pickup company be able to help you with anyway?

    I forecast once enough companies start to imitate the ‘natural’ stuff (causing saturation at this end of the market with consequent frustration with this ‘methods’) you will reach a tipping point at which point you will get an antithetical reaction back to scripted routines and exact behavioural directives … probably with tacky catchphrases such as ‘we will teach you exactly what to do in X, Y or Z scenario”.

    Z

    ps I have to say RSD is probably the most evil force in pickup at the moment … they are creating more deranged crackpots than anyone else out there by far. Observing their students (cult members) in places like Leicester Square on a Saturday night is like watching Cro-Magnon men with no social intelligence at all (making a mockery of the name ‘real social dynamics’ .. more like ‘no social dynamics’).

  7. Perhaps I’m missing the point to the story, but a responsible coach would not put him in the ring to spar on his first day. [That’s kinda the point. The coach was trusted and completely failed to provide the instruction necessary to cope with the live environment, leading the student to give up. K.]

  8. I enjoyed reading the parable – it’s of publishable quality this time and open to interpretations – this skill makes a true writer. Kudos.

  9. Fantastic post Krauser, bravo.

    Not quite the same thing, but it completely nailed the feeling I got when I attended a relatively expensive boot-camp by a highly regarded ‘Purple Pill’ coach about a year ago. The head coach regularly gives speeches at the 21 Convention – you probably know who I’m talking about. The sort that sells itself on the basis that it has female coaches and tells guys to explore their vulnerability in order to attract women. Did a lot of approaches but the only interest I got was from marginally attractive girls (pretty much the type I was getting before I became interested in pick-up). I walked away from it with the feeling that I was somehow doomed to failure, despite being a fairly successful, tall, decent-looking guy. I actually became seriously depressed for most of the following year.

    I found a new lease on life when I stumbled across this blog quite by accident a few months ago, which also lead me to Rollo Tomassi and other writers. It’s astounding how even just an awareness of female hypergamy, feminist shaming tactics and shit-testing can dramatically improve your game.

    You’ve mentioned it elsewhere, but it’s not much use having a coach teach a guy to change his behaviour if he can’t also teach the guy the correct framework/belief system in which to operate. [Thanks boss. Feel free to actually name the company you did the boot camp with. If they feel unfairly slighted, they can always respond. I don’t believe in the PUA Omerta. K.]

    • Fair enough. The Natural Lifestyles – I admit you could probably do a lot worse than attend one of their workshops but overall I believe they’re more interested in capturing the lucrative beta white knight market than in teaching effective game. Lame social freedom exercises, encouragement of dumpster diving and a lot of magical thinking. But the main problem I had is that they tell guys to be dominant and masculine and sexual, and then juxtapose it awkwardly with the whole myth of the Patriarchy and the standard feminist tropes. I may be overly rational (I’m also an INTJ), but there were simply too many jarring contradictions for me to handle, and so I always ended up going back to my agreeable, docile, reliable beta persona.

      An analogy I know you’ll appreciate: when I studied economics, I initially struggled to learn Keynesian economics. It seemed to be so full of contradictions that I couldn’t believe it enough to understand it. After studying Classical and Austrian economics, I understood Keynesian economics thoroughly and realised I wasn’t stupid, I was just learning something absurd.

      For a rational, intelligent man, this is the problem with trying to adopt Purple Pill ideas. [Yep, that sounds about right. I had a few beers with Sasha in Brazil in 2013 and he was a very likeable guy. As for the rest, I only know what I see on their channel. I saw Marshall out with his girlfriend in Belgrade last week and she was a solid 8. But then again, he looks like Aragorn Son Of Arathorn so it wasn’t YHT. K.]

      • Their name itself contains the word ‘Natural’. Seriously, what did you expect?

      • You live and you learn. At the time I thought ‘natural’ game could be effective, and by this stage there was a kind of backlash against the scripted openers and robotic behaviour that Neil Strauss talks about in ‘The Game’. And it has a strong appeal to men who want to improve with women, but want to retain their beta dreams and identity. Back then I certainly wasn’t ready to stare into the abyss.

        I’ll give them some credit in that they do emphasise that you can’t really go into a set rigidly planning for each and every eventuality. You have to ‘be like water’ and constantly adapt your approach based on that particular set, the vibe and the conversation. Which is great advice, but a guy who is unaware of shit-tests is going to fail with almost any girl of equal or greater SMV.

        The boxing metaphor that Krauser uses is very apt; I don’t think I’ve ever seen a practitioner of natural game consistently punch above his weight. A lot of guys learn to dress better, work out, take up new and interesting hobbies, or just become more confident over time and with age. Which is great, but not really the essence of game.

  10. Krauser, let me say something. Let us assume that you’re devil and I am god, and that we’re negotiating rewards at the end of the world as good friends instead of killing each other for nothing in another round.

    So let’s say we’re making a bargain. I give you the praise that many would want to have , like the one from Churchill to Rommel in the WW2. You will be rewarded for your work of sharing and experimenting in the sport you’re doing, let’s say after this match ended, and we find ourselves in a new world. – The work you did is fantastic. It has costs, suffering, and perverted effects. the perverted effects arrived sooner than expected. You’ve done the sigma work. Don’t be bad to sigmas when you will alpha. Feel empathy that is (like I do now) . See yourself in your future enemy. )

    You’re a brilliant man , incredible intelligence, very analytical, a man of immense strength and I respect it. You’re one who has understood many things. You will get your rewards with men faith. You worked hard on your field. You got it right very well and you’re near to guess stuff. But let’s say someone else may have done what you did in other directions..all kinds – in the light, in the dark, to get women for longer relations, for money, for whatever. And they got good as you..etc. The point is…the poliricl way you run the game – predation – is arriving to endgame. Trump understood. Putin Understood. Erdogan understood. Lepens need “contents”. There are very few who understood maybe a bit more than you, and who see the world from the other side. That is, the men who would like to keep a world where the women like your former wife last longer. ))

    I respect your path and your suffering and the learning I had – I will remember them. Because all choices have a trade off – sharing information vs keeping it secret etc, spending time training and not spending it. SO I say – soon in England you will be, very likely, a powerful man. Let the rest of the world disagree with your vision about liberalism is cool and marxism is bad. in France they can have a mix of it. So don’t push it hard – don’t be violent, that is (no cruel dark triad) – and they will let you keep your system without violence. ))

    See you)) [I’m not sure I understood you but that was interesting. K.]

  11. Women always advise guys to “just be yourself”.

    I usually reply back ‘well I am a narcissistic psychopath should I still be myself?’

    Silence.

  12. This reads like the parenting strategy of every single mom ever.

  13. There is this other guy Naz TNG, Johnny co-coach. This guy post video of him getting numbers but all his numbers seems going to flake. I dont how he can qualify himself to be a teacher with such a low game.

    • They don’t all flake dude … some girls are going to call back later on the presumption he was a Bangladeshi waiter trying to encourage them to try out one of the many fine curry houses in the capital. The problem with Bangladeshi curry houses is they all seem to set up on the same street so the waiters often have to solicit business on the street. [Tone down the racism please, or move it to my Twitter. On this blog #WeAreAllDaygamers/ As for the fat guy in the video – total no hoper. He seems like a genuinely nice guy but the girls treated him like a little puppy. If I was to coach him I’d recommend 1) heavy weights in gym, 2) diet 3) 6 months minimum boxing, the last 3 with sparring 4) get horribly shitfaced on whiskey and fuck some whores. He’s quite capable of starting a pleasant rapport-based conversation. He’s completely unable to get a girl attracted to him. K.]

      • Is London plagued with retards that use all the same opener over and over again? “Hi, I just saw you and I thought you looked really nice”. Because from here it really looks like it. [It has ebbs and flows. Often you don’t see a single daygamer all day. K.]

      • do you think the reason hes unable to attract a girl is because of the lack of teasing and challenging hes doing, or the fact his smv is far too low for the girls hes approaching?

      • I would be willing to sponsor such a process just as an curious social experiment (perhaps with a kicker of a Randolph Mortimer style $1 bet on his future success).

        I would add the following ‘training’ to your list:

        1) He needs a voice coach to get rid of the strong Bangladeshi accent (not that I think this makes him a better person necessarily, just that I think it likely conveys negative stereotypes amongst women esp. English girls). If it was a strong French accent it would be a positive here. Just social biases at play.

        2) Needs a style makeover. Hair, clothes and so on … again utterly superficial but it would make a difference to perception.

        3) Intense programme of reading material of sufficient quality and depth in order to make him into the most interesting man to speak with not just on a particular street but possibly in the western hemisphere (I don’t mean the Tai Lopez self help idiot route of reading anything … it has to be focused on specific topics which are genuinely enriching). Of course we face a danger here that Naz may turn out to be a great philosopher of our times and abandon pickup in favour of adding to humanities understanding of itself which could make the winner of the $1 bet somewhat difficult to decide.

      • Throw in a gun safety course, some range shooting, hunting, archery, and fencing, and I’d be in. Oh wait, that sounds like too much fun!

      • Who was it that said “high value women don’t sleep with low value men”?

      • If you manage to watch to the end, he signs off by offering his services as a daygame coach. These type of videos are obvious click-bait for complete beginners. I assume this is Johnny Berba”s marketing strategy, show a complete chode having limited success, and tap into viewers belief that “if this guy can do it, then why can’t I?”. Whilst this might work to get him some victims to sell his coaching to, it won’t get the guys he *coaches* any kind of results.

        It’s a fucking travesty, this isn’t just bad game, it’s a concerted tactic to fleece and rip-off newbies..

  14. Nice.

    Off topic, but could you post the speech on trump you give girls (you mentioned it somewhere recently)?

  15. Maybe it’s not as much natural vs system based, but simple exposure to reality? Reading system based or natural book doesn’t work, but practice works many great seducers didn’t have any manuals to rely on. You may say it takes the guesswork out, but it may just as well instill bad behaviours/mindsets. Like seeing conspiracy behind everything, too much of a defensive position when meeting women, overanalysis, forcing lifestyle on guys, bad mindset the seducer himself changes later…etc.
    I wont lie, I prefer Jabba or even Marshall, who is slightly more gamey, to heavy stuff. Basically I found focus on yes/strong maybe girls with just basic principles and self improvement and lots of practice is good for mind and happy life in general. [This is kinda the point – there’s a right way to do things (or at least a limited number of different right ways) and if you don’t learn them you are reduced to severe underperformance. If you’ve ever watched two untrained fighters go at it (i.e. “natural fighting”) it’s just luck applied to their relative bodyweights. It’s just as embarrassing as watching a “natural” player do game. All they can do is punch below their weight. BTW. Jabba is “authentic” rather than “natural”. Completely different thing. K.]

    • Mr. Krauser, are you saying that naturals only have sex with women with much lower SMVs than trained PUAs? I’m not sure that I understand what you mean by “punch below their weight”. [No. People running “natural game” only have sex with women with lower SMV than the same person if they learned technical game. K.]

      • Ok, so you’re saying that naturals will have sex with higher SMV women using game than without using game?

        Obviously, there might be a few outliers who haven’t trained in game but discovered the key precepts of game themselves in the course of their experiences with women. [Yes. For an example of this in analogy, search YouTube for “Joe Savage vs Bert Cooper”. That’s what happens when a naturally tough but barely-trained guy gets into the ring with a legit pro. K.]

    • Absolutely. Didn’t you consider to tackle the topic of tier2 girls vs normal girls – their strategy, expectations, chasing alphas, sexuality…you talked a bit about it on twitter and we also had a post explaining Jabba’s empathy, but I feel it’s in this distinction where a certain peace of mind can be found for both a stoic player and relationship oriented red pill guy. It could bridge the attitudes of AWALT, enjoy the decline vs Virgin Christian Wife Club and bring some realism. Less suspition and approach anxiety in the world;-)

  16. All we need to do is be natural and do inner bonding meditations there’s no need for pickup techniques just be yourself and get in touch with your inner child… [Oh god, him again. He looks like he should be in a Hello magazine papparazzi photo, walking behind Jordan and carrying her shopping. K.]

    • Ayahuasca ceremony gone wrong in a John Coopers case … stay off the drugs kids.

      • John Cooper has reached an awakened state of mind, an enlightened soul, a modern day Shoreditch hipster version of the Buddha. Luckily unlike the Buddha who had to renounce a princely existence and undergo a severe penance almost to the death in order to reach enlightenment … John Cooper just went through a unfortunate breakup with his girlfriend, do nightclub promotion and do some pickup … now the world is lucky enough to receive his great wisdom.

      • Arent ypu a fan of Chris Murphy

  17. I see what you did here. Hahah nicely done, k !

    I would be a krausermaniac, reading all your posts.

    I took a hiatus from reading any game blogs though (kept practice -tweaking, building from my own pov).

    This hiatus was def well worth it, sure you felt the same in your hiatus to write Mastery.

    Anyway – Your blogs is the only game blog I’ll keep reading. Keep up the work !

    P.s your Twitter account can be hilarious as hell. Makes me lmao at work.

  18. Tell Scott to try muay thai

  19. http://freedompowerandwealth.com
    Many guys have lost interest in sports at school. Unfortunaltely there are many who never come back and discover the advantages and also the joy of physical activity and competion.

  20. Krauser, I think a “Roadmap” post is in order where you detail all the steps required to reach mastery in Game.

    The roadmap would be broken down into two phases: building value and delivering value. Building value can be broken down further into Looks (including physical appearance and building masculinity through contact sports) and “Life” (including traveling, pursuing hobbies). Delivering value would then be largely about what your books cover: learning the LDM.

    I suggest this because I’m interested in hearing you thoughts on full contact sports and their role in developing the requisite “masculinity” for success in the bigger picture of Game.

    Your brutally rational approach is would do this topic justice. [I’ve already written a bunch of posts on this, plus my first podcast. K.]

  21. This might be the best bit of writing you’ve done. Rhythm, pacing, concision, every detail a telling detail – I’m hearing the sound of skills being transferred.

  22. The idea of having a system is critical to understanding and benchmarking your game. Otherwise you have no idea what part to work on: attraction, comfort, rapport, etc. I’ve gottten to the point where I’ve internalized so much of Daygame Mastery that it no longer “feels” like i’m doing something, it’s become more natural. I just set up a drinks meet up with a girl I number closed: ping, text, some banter, she responds in minutes and banters back, then i confirm logistics. The system, the language i use, the approach and once the meet up is set, it’s get off texting and leave it until that time and date. Before Daygame Mastery I was kind of getting it right but it was hit and miss. I didn’t understand the text game breakdown you’ve outlined in some recent posts. Sure a good looking guy may be able to pull but the fact I can do it at my age and looks means my SMV is much higher and the women I’m pulling are h igher quality. I now take what works from the various blogs but I trust your systems because they are so clear and have been proven effective for me personally.

  23. Hello Krauser!
    I’m a restarter daygamer with your stuff. And I’m from hungary. So my english not really strong.

    But I want to ask you, what do you do, when a girl come, talking phone, walking past, and she talking in a phone. What do you do, when you want to seduce her?
    Whats different in those sets?

    • “Tell your mother/boyfriend, you’ll call her right back” or juat motion her to put the phone down. Often times they just remain on the phone, so just run the set, she’ll either hang up her call eventually, or she’ll use it as an excuse to keep on walking. If she’s receptive though, can use the “Is that your Dad on the phone? I need to speak to him, I have an important question that will ensure the future happiness of his daughter” You basically imply your gonna ask him for her hand in marriage. Obv. this is done in a tongue-in-cheek way. 😉 gooodluck

  24. and happy christmas!

  25. Hello Krauser:

    I haven’t commented here before, but I am hoping you can help me out. I’m at a crossroads, mind-wise, and your insights would probably be helpful to me. I noticed that you had left a comment on the Chateau Heartiste site, under the CH article entitled “What Do You Do When An Alpha Move Goes Wrong?”, in which you said:

    “he problem is that it wasn’t an alpha move, just a slightly cocky beta one. Alpha is tricking her then eating the cake. Subcom is the cake is the prize. His was setting up kiss, so she’s the prize. Worse, subcom is he must trick her into a kiss.

    Don’t blame her for slap. Must’ve felt icky.”

    I took issue with that and left a long reply to you, but I guess my comment get dropped for some reason – that happens on occasion at the CH site – I’m not sure but I suspect he (they) might censure messages he doesn’t like, but anyway, since my response was a long and involved I was sure to save it elsewhere just in case. So I’ll post it here now. Here it goes (I reside in Western Canada by the way):

    @krauser – I don’t get it. Why are you excusing her bad behavior just because she felt icky?

    Look, I’m regular older dude (56), married 20 years, divorced 10 years ago, other sexual relationships before and after marriage, (but no sexual relationships for two years now, just some casual friendships with several women as per my conscious choice in the matter, until I finally see things clearer – I don’t want to fuck up anymore). After adjusting things midlife partly due to redpill advice, I have incorporated the following central message that I think I am getting from redpill, into my default attitude, – which in a nutshell is this:

    – women often behave as if their feelings are of primary importance in most any circumstance, but when you take a step back, you can easily see that that is almost never true (i.e. – their feelings are almost never of primary importance). So redpill = as a man, start behaving in accordance with this information.

    The way I have interpreted that is that women are capable of seeing the larger perspective, or the many perspectives, and not just their’s, but often need to be helped out, and they need this help perhaps partly because culture has conditioned women to be selfish perspective-wise (like perhaps there is a small innate propensity for this, but that this innate propensity is then strongly emphasized via a myriad of social feedback loops).

    So, for CH’s example, excusing her behavior because it may have made her feel icky is the wrong thing to do, bigger picture-wise, IMO. True this approach may not be helpful with respect to fucking her in the short-term, but if I do progress to a more longer-term relationship with a woman, setting up an initial pattern of reinforcing bad behavior, – by excusing it by way of ignoring it, is only going to fuck things up for me and her in the long run. I think it would be helpful if all men incorporated the above-mentioned redpill central message into their default attitude. If this occurred – I think the women in general would then have no choice but be forced to improve beyond childishness.

    You may tell me that women are incapable of improving beyond childlishness. And you could probably ascertain a heck of alot better than me whether that is true (though I have alot of women-experience, it has only been with a handful, not nearly the same variety of scope as you). That seems to be the consensus with the pua community. Is it true? Look – I’m getting closer every day to just saying fuck it and going apeman with the ladies, but I got this egalitarian ideal I try to live by (for very personal reasons), that has mostly worked for me, but not with the ladies, pretty much ever – with them it seems like this egalitarian attitude of mine eventually either becomes unhelpful to me, or in some cases it has even been duplicitously turned against me, like a cudgel. Am I to look at women as spoiled children, that can never improve beyond that state? If so, the egalitarian wouldn’t apply, because then it would be clear women don’t have the aptitude to reciprocally comply with the egalitarian (i.e – the egalitarian ideal is contingent on a spirit of reciprocation, and obviously must be abandoned in circumstances where reciprocation is not possible). Look – if I can finally convince myself of this, I’m going to go apeman bigtime probably.

    So Krauser – I guess my question to you, since you know a heck of alot more about this than I do – are women actually incapable of appreciating the even-hand (i.e. – is it always just either upper-hand or lower-hand with them)?

    Just so you know, this is a very big deal to me. It seems the egalitarian viewpoint is the way I was able to re-find fellowship with people, during a very weird time for me when I was 12, where I kinda felt myself falling into insanity for about 2 months, because I couldn’t shake this weird conviction that suddenly came over me, that I was in a waking dream for 12 long years, and nothing was real outside of my dream, – like an extremely solipsistic viewpoint overcame me that wouldn’t shake-off, scared the shit out of me, I couldn’t tell anyone because I suspected everybody was not real, so I didn’t know what the fuck they were, which made me extremely paranoid and made me very closely observe everyone, including my parents, to figure out what the fuck they were and how exactly they operated – I think I may have been forming a brain pattern that would have allowed me to turn psychopathic, and I was completely freaked out, mainly because it felt like I was utterly alone, like in the whole universe alone – that feels very very bad. Anyway – thank the powers that be, I found a way out of that mess – by contemplating an egalitarian viewpoint (i.e. – everybody is basically the same as me, a human being with real agency, in a real world that exits outside of my own agency, which is the way I looked at things before this episode occurred), vs. the solipsistic viewpoint (i.e. – nothing is real outside of my experience). It turns out there is slightly more evidence for the egalitarian viewpoint – and that careful ontological analysis was enough to break the spell, but 2 whole months of this extreme weirdness had already transpired by that time, so this event pretty much has marked me for life. The egalitarian viewpoint (which in another correlative way can be defined as equal fundamental existential worth of individuals), automatically leads one to conclude that dealing with others in an even-handed way is obviously a vastly superior way (and closer to the truth way), as long as others see this too, which I would assume they must, because they are just like me – a human being (as defined above). I am really committed to this egalitarian attitude (like it seems to me I learned an extremely valuable lesson when I was 12 and I have never been able to shake it – the lesson). Look, – the way I see it – we are all islands to ourselves to a large degree, but the very cool thing is that because the islands are the same (human beings), we can make connections that are not parasitic or coercive – i.e. – we are capable of making mutual connections – and that just feels fucking way better than parasitism or coercion (because then I don’t have to feel all alone).

    So Krauser I hope you can help me out with respect to your much greater experiences with a variety of women. If you tell me that they are, deep down, not capable of appreciating my point of view, then I would have to start to conclude after all this time that they are not really human beings in the way I have defined human beings. That’s license for psychopathy man. And I could probably do that shit. Fuck – help me out if you can – would appreciate to hear about your insights. I am at a crossroads now.

    • You should go to Rollo Tomassi’s blog (The Rational Male), or read his book (of the same name). This is a massive topic and Tomassi deals with it in depth, not to mention very well. He definitely helped me a lot in straightening out a lot of the glaring contradictions I’d encountered in dating/pickup advice and feminist/mangina indoctrination vs. real world observations.

      • @Bastiat – yes – Rational Male is where I started my redpill education, and I have read a majority of Rollo’s articles, over the two years now that | have purposely stepped back. A few months ago, I had digested enough of Rollo’s (and CH’s) advice, that I began commenting, because I am still troubled by the dissonance of my egalitarian viewpoint, and the redpill viewpoint. I outlined what | said above, in various ways, to try to tease out Rollo’s position on this because I highly respect his hard-won perspective, but am troubled as to whether his perspective is actually based on a bedrock belief that women are innately substandard aptitude-wise, for something as simple as mutuality of human respect and appreciation of others. This is not a trivial matter, IMO, – our western culture has been successful I think because of an incorporation of the egalitarian ideal (especially since the renaissance and enlightenment periods), and this has worked rather well, until the rising ascendancy of the Feminine Imperative (as defined by Rollo), since perhaps the mid ’70’s, has confused things. Via my many attempts to discover Rollo’s bedrock believe in this matter – he has chosen not to reveal his belief in this matter, and I don’t know why. As such, my mystification about this simple (but subtle) matter continues. I am hoping someone like Krauser, with his vast and varied dealings with women, could shed some light on this matter for me.

        I am the kind of person who is very curious by nature, and did spend part of my earlier adulthood letting the curiosity trait have freer reign in social matters as well, but have always returned to my egalitarian disposition, by way of such testing of it. It tests out quite well, as a conviction, except with respect to women in general, and a minority of men (but these men are quite easy to identify so you know for these men that you can’t run a script of trust based on mutual respect, – you have to be more vigilant and match any move on their part for upper-hand, with a redirection of their efforts so as to usurp upper-hand yourself, so as to return the dynamic back to the pseudo-egalitarian – for such men that is the best you can hope for, and it is trying, like dealing with an unruly child, and so I choose to limit my exposure). I can except that a minority of men are deficient, and not really adult-like humans and deal accordingly, but putting all of womankind in such category is another matter.

        I have found that my egalitarian perspective is contingent on the following: A very high level of self-respect, a belief in human agency, these together predispose a person to seek the perspectives of others, in the spirit of mutual respect and mutual appreciation, with the strong expectation that others also highly respect themselves, so as to uphold the dynamic. There are a lot of moving parts to this. The thug-type men I know who can’t partake – when I get to know them very well it always seems to be an issue with their self respect and not understanding the limits of their agency. With the religious-type-men I know who can’t partake – when I get to know them very well is always seems to be an issue with their self respect plus a giving away of their agency. It is so much harder to see what may be occurring with regular women (i.e. – not fucked-up by womanhood standards) – it is like there is something else going on that I can’t penetrate. The women themselves seem to be at a loss as to explain (I have tried and gone deep with several women on this issue but …., it is like they don’t know themselves).

        I know this sounds condescending as fuck. I’m 56, and I am of the opinion that is the right time for me to solidify my convictions, and if people want to see that as condescending – so be it, that doesn’t mean much to me at this point. But I am still troubled by how to properly see womankind around this issue. [No way I’m reading that after suffering through the self-indulgent pedantry of your first comment. If you want a 1-on-1, pay a coach for their time. Otherwise, figure it out for yourself. K.]

      • @Krauser – OK – judge as is your proclivity I guess, but in the spirit of fair exchange, I am hoping you can at least tell me why you didn’t see that the woman that slapped the man in the vid CH was using as an example, didn’t deserve to have her phone momentarily taken away by the man, at the very least? I think it is clear she behaved much like a two year-old child, slap-wise – why would you, with your wealth of experience, excuse that by way of it – must have felt icky to her? So what that it felt icky to her, IMO. Look – I’m not trying purposely to be obtuse – It really struck me that if you said that about the example, with all the experience you bring to the table, then perhaps it is because you believe that womankind does not possess the aptitude to rise out of childhood, and so there is no point in even trying to correct the childish behavior.. This is precisely the issue I am concerned with.

        I am very interested in your view on this. Simple question. [Ok. I said I understand her ickiness, but I don’t excuse her behaviour. If a girl had done that to me I’d have walked off, left her with the bill, and deleted her number. At no point would I have considered her slap an “obstacle” to be figured out in order to “win” the set. K.]

      • Hi Krauser – thank-you for answering me. I misunderstood your sentiment then. I see what you meant now, with your CH comment, and I guess I agree. Perhaps you would agree that we can expect more than just childishness from women (that’s the view I don’t really want to give up – that it is proper to expect more). Do you agree? I have been faced with a great deal of child-like selfishness from women. It is endemic among womankind IMO. Some do respond when chided in the other direction (but there is fine line here, with respect to the chiding instead inciting resentment).

        I really don’t want to be the shit-lord of women and am hopeful that that approach is not necessary (but in the end, if my current attitude doesn’t fit well enough with the feedbacks I receive, I may just decide to finally go that way). I am currently of the opinion that my past errors have been largely due to not being vigilant enough in spotting the childishness, so as to know that it needs to be dealt with forthwith (like if not in the moment, then as appropriate at some soonish later time).

        The quandary for me has been – I have been concluding that the endemic childishness among womankind is only in smaller portion due to an innate propensity for such, but is pervasive mainly due to this perspective-wise selfishness being so emphasized by social feedback loops embedded in our culture (and maybe this is the default position for pretty much every culture that does not have the machinery in place for seeking otherwise). That would mean that there really isn’t an aptitude problem so much as a conditioning problem with women, and therefore my hope that my now more nuanced actions with women could incite a revision to mutuality (which is what I would more-so desire, than a constant frame of straight-up dominance on my part, or maybe put more succinctly, – what I hope is required on my part would be limited to a constant dominant frame with respect to expecting and guiding a woman back to the mutual frame-sharing frame, when she deviates). I am still a little unsure of this conclusion (it being a synthesis of my more long-held egalitarian interpretations, combined with my new redpill insights). I’m older and don’t want to waste any more time. I want to do what I can, by way of obtaining insights from knowledgeable others, so as to provide myself with more confidence that my frame is an accurate reflection of the actualities.

        Krauser – I see you are right that my writing style is rather heavy, and some would say overly-precise. That is something I have to work on (I have been writing on this topic for only a few months now, so I probably could do a better job of finding more accessible language and phrasing). I am trying to improve writing-wise. I hope you look past the heaviness and let me know whether you think I’m on the right track or not about the frame I am hoping is the correct one, with women.

        Thank-you for your attention.

  26. Very good post, your really good at writing

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