In my previous post I told the story of a Serbian girl who got LMR on my bed after a very fast pull from the first date. Late the next evening she dropped a big shit test on me, which I glossed over in my blogpost. Unsurprisingly, many readers want to know what happened. Given that everyone who posted so far has managed to give sub-par responses to her test, let’s look at what I did and why.
The disclaimer for my readers is this: You weren’t there, you didn’t get anywhere near as much information to base your calibration decision upon as I did. So, I’m not pointing and laughing at your advice. In different situations, that might work. Just not this one.
Ok, so before proceeding be sure to read the previous post to get the context of the shit test. Ready?
Why bounce her home fast?
ASDgamer suggests I should’ve gone to her friend’s party and ran some version of social circle game to increase my value. No. The KISS rule applies in game as much as anywhere else. The whole point of a date is to get the girl isolated, horny, and close to a sex location. I had all three of these boxes ticked. Going to the party would be a backwards step. It would involve all of the following likely consequences:
- Her buying temperature drops and the window of opportunity closes
- Many new unknown variables introduced in people, situation and logistics
- Highly likely there’s at least one of her orbiters there looking to cockblock
- All deniability is removed
She suggested the party as a reflexive attempt to derail the train. She knew that she was horny and highly likely to have sex if we went to my apartment and therefore she instinctively triggered the “don’t get fucked” script and tried to derail. This had nothing at all to do with value. Value is one of the most misunderstood areas of game. She hooked on the street stop, played along in vibing, gave the number, replied enthusiastically in texts, came on the date dolled up, and made out with me. This is all confirmation that my value was just fine. Overconfirmation if anything. If you get that far with a girl and still think she’s doubting your value, you need to re-read Mystery Method. Value only matters in getting attraction, and I had plenty of that. By the time she started derailing, it was more of a comfort issue.
She had LMR because it was too much, too fast. As simple as that. So, let’s look at the next day when she drops the shit test on me. I’ll take the reader responses in order and comment, beginning with our intrepid ASDgamer again.
““Life is a beautiful tapestry…Que sera, sera.” Hamster wonders, “What does he mean? He seems very sure of himself. In control.” Builds value.
“The weatherman is predicting a storm of passion tomorrow night…but what does he know” Hamster wonders, “Is he into me?” Provokes her to chase.
Create a fantasy for her hamster to chew on.
The first reply is channeling the right kind of vibe, which is to distract and disorient. This is based on the idea that she’s not really serious with her test, she just wants to throw it out as plausible deniability so she can say to herself “at least I tried to avoid sex. He just kept going, so I couldn’t help fucking him.” I actually took that tack myself in my initial response, as you’ll see later.
The second reply is wrong. it’s far too aggressive and overtly sexual. Her shit test is based on her emotion of “too much, too fast. I don’t want to be obligated to sex” and therefore sending her a text with basically means “tomorrow will be sex” is giving her the ripcord she needs to avoid me entirely. Bad move.
So let’s consider Aunt Jemina
“You just need to say something quite basic which shows that what she said hasn’t really affected you, and also that you’re not putting too much pressure on her.
Example: “Let’s just see how it goes”
Or flip the script: “Pfft. Presumptuous. Let’s meet at X tomorrow at 8.”
The first one is too hopeful and needy. The subcommunication is defensive, accepting that she gets to make the rules because you don’t want to risk rocking the boat. It could work, but it just doesn’t feel right to me. It would be an okay fall-back text if you rack your mind and can’t think of something better.
The second one is similar – could work, but doesn’t feel right. This time it’s too bullying and lacking soft dominance. It’s forcing her into an ultimatum and subcommunicating that you’re someone who will just trampled over any objections. I don’t need anymore hard dominance because I already did a one-hour pull. Her worry is about being obligated to sex if she shows up on the date, because she’s still nervous and wants to retain the “out” to show up but not have sex. Re-read her initial objection: she knows what I want but doesn’t want to commit herself and then get into an awkward date where I get all arsey with her if she says no.
Now we’ll go to ARC
“I would have to agree that it would be pointless. Anytime I meet up with a woman who I have a sexual interest in for a drink I’m looking for one of two things. I either want to fuck her or have her suck my dick. Now if you have no interest in reciprocating my sexual desires then I appreciate you not being a time-waster. However, if there is some attraction on your part which you are willing to acknowledge then I’m sure I can get your pussy wet by whispering in your ear statements like ‘I’d just like to find the nearest motel room so I can bend you over and slowly slide my nice juicy dick in your tight wet pussy’”
This has numerous problems. It’ll work okay within the context of ARC’s overall method, which is mostly overtly filtering for DTF girls [there’s more to it than that, but that’s the relevant bit here]. Within the context of the pick-up that I actually did, here’s where it goes wrong:
- The message is far too long. It’s making a “big issue” out of something that’s best nimbly side-stepped. Never give the girl a reason not to fuck you – she’s capable of coming up with enough of her own.
- It’s 100% overt and logical, like you’re talking to a man.
- Calling her a time-waster immediately makes it confrontational. Remember when a girl derails the train her mindset is “I know I’m gonna have sex with him, so I have to find any excuse whatsoever to avoid it”. Calling her a time-waster is that excuse.
- Too vulgar for this type of girl.
Sometimes a girl is super-on and you can tip her over the edge with an ultimatum or by amping up her horniness, but I generally avoid that. You quickly end up losing all the strong maybe girls and all you’re left with is the Yes Girls. If you’re willing to squander potential lays in order to save being messed about, that’ll work. I prefer to work the Maybes and risk the time-wasting.
Lastly, let’s hear Walawala’s take
I’d use the line I always use when I get those types or responses and learned from K: “Behave…what makes you think I’d want to…you’d have to wine and dine me, the we’ll see”… That usually diffuses that tension.
This one is overplaying a mediocre hand. She knows full well that I want to fuck her. I picked her up, I pulled her home, I rammed two fingers up her pussy, and I got my dick out. To then say “you’d have to wine and dine me” – even as a joke – is just unconvincing. There is no flipping of the script this late into a pull. The only way the script can be flipped here is if I’m prepared to roll off for several days to give her a fear of loss (which I didn’t have time for) and even then it’s highly improbable.
So to summarise, the tendency in the replies is to be too gamey and evasive, or too overt. Let’s look at what I actually did and why.
Step one was to just brush past the objection on the assumption that’s she’s not serious about it, similar to ASDgamer’s first response. So I just tell her I’m not perverted and then redirect. She seems to accept it so I just finish with a joke, expecting that to be the end of it. This turns out to have been the wrong play – she’s more serious than I thought and I’ve overplayed my hand a little.
Now things get tangled up because she misunderstands me. Usually I’d say it’s good to be “real” long enough to let her know it’s not all jokes, and that I understand her main worry is in being forced to promise too much. I think it was the right play and I got unlucky with her misunderstanding.
So that forces me to stay logical and serious longer than I’d like, to shuttle her to the end of her little wobble and then I return to playfulness as soon as I think it’s possible. That works and it ends well.
So what you’re really seeing here is I overplayed my hand a bit, created a stir, then got a bit unlucky when trying to calm down the stir, but ultimately recovered it. Not the smoothest, but it worked. So now she’s in a holding pattern on long game and my next trip to Belgrade will provide the ultimate answer.
August 4, 2015 at 4:30 pm
“There’s no perversion in my mind” was weak. A&A “Yeah, I want you to star with me in a porno flick with an orangutang and a kangaroo. I’m so perverted, lol.” Make light of her fears. Gives the message that she’s misreading you. Your reply caused her to assume that you were hiding your “true intentions”. She followed up on that. Never apologize for wanting sex. You didn’t explicitly, but one weak step that a woman is sure to detect….
The context of the rest of the text was very positive (“mindreading”!!!!). [The context is that I am perverted and I’m shamelessly denying it. I didn’t write it in my field report but one of the things I said to her on the date was “Sorry, I was just trying to look down your shirt. I hope that doesn’t make me a pervert.” Like I said, I’m analysing this with more information available to me than you guys, so not everything will be obvious. K.]
August 4, 2015 at 4:38 pm
Regarding value…there are different types of value…diff girls value diff attributes more than others. Some might value social dominance, some playful jerkboys, some MMA violent men. It could be that all girls value all of them, but weight them differently.
I never say, “I’m a lover, not a fighter.” My favorite mode is victory through overwhelming betapower. (Chat up the bartender and bouncers.) I have been known to go physical or threaten with a club in hand. I carry a small knife if things get desperate.
Also, since you didn’t get the lay right after escalating, you likely triggered buyer’s remorse. Hence the 5h1t test in her text.
August 4, 2015 at 5:41 pm
I just thought of a new def for “ASD” — “Fear of Buyer’s Remorse”.
August 4, 2015 at 5:21 pm
Looks like I came late to the party but there are obviously many avenues for a response to this.
I have found that sometimes minimizing and redirecting a girl’s ASD works often, but they occasionally will keep bringing up the same issue…and in those cases you need to address her concerns.
I would say something along the lines of:
“It would be fun to meetup again. It’s possible that we end up having sex, or we don’t. Either way it will be an enjoyable evening”
Short, sweet and ends that thread in most cases.
August 4, 2015 at 5:26 pm
This was incredibly subtle and full of nuance.
Do you take time/effort in figuring your target or is just experience/instinct?
August 4, 2015 at 5:38 pm
“enjoy your shower. see if you can wash all that inconvenient logic away”
what if you used this point in the conversation to pour on some comfort instead? She sounds like the type of girl who mentally needs to feel she is in a relationship or on her way to one to fuck. Maybe if you had typed something like, “it’s not pointless to meet. I feel we have a special connection, and I enjoy spending time with you”. The point being to hint that you see more potential then just a fuck (even if that’s not true). Seems to me that’s what she was looking for.
August 4, 2015 at 6:49 pm
She’s not looking for a relationship–she’s looking for a beautiful fantasy with a hot out-of-towner–an exotic man.
August 4, 2015 at 9:28 pm
I would have gone with:-
lol, that “itch” has been scratched. Free to focus on my second favourite thing now, free beer. You’re buying right ?
But I’m new to this shit so what do I know, how do y’all think that would have played ?
August 4, 2015 at 10:38 pm
Great post Nick! The text clinic is a good idea to get readers more involved in the blog and it’d be a shame if this was just a one off. It seems that face-to-face game is all about vibe and a smooth escalation. Yet when it comes to text it becomes a very analytical chess game.
Regarding the ARC model, first of all I’m not really a big believer in so called “yes girls” I think that they’re on the high end of the maybe spectrum and will tolerate more errors and bullshit on your part without punishing you by refusing sex, but they do have their limits. That said the ARC model is very raw, but I think part of it’s beauty is that it’s not only a filtering technique but can be a massive DHV because it communicates honesty, confidence and being unapologetic simultaneously, thus converting maybe’s into higher probability “yes girls”. The obvious drawbacks though are that it can very quickly trigger ASD. Judging by the early Krauser infields you can see that ARC was definitely an influence.
I’m just curious I’m aware this school of thought became a big craze a few years back and quickly got watered down and incorporated into the London Daygame Model, but I’m surprised it didn’t have a bigger impact. There’s some crazy stories about ARC having 15min pulls in airports and supermarkets and he seems a really congruent guy who has a strong conviction in his pick-up philosophy so I doubt he’s just making this stuff up. Also I don’t think he was doing as many approaches as modern daygamers. So is the community missing a trick by discarding an approach which can lead to fast casual sex, albeit very difficult for a newbie to pull off, or are the occurrences of these fast-pull results much scarcer than suggested? [Thanks. I just need to point out a couple of things. The whole Mode One / Direct Daygame Summit was a marketing push between ARC, Sasha and (I think) Bad Boy. It’s not really an LDM thing. We weren’t involved and didn’t really sign up to it’s ideas. Yes it was in London, and involved daygame but it wasn’t “LDM”. They were doing their own thing. I read the Mode One book and quite liked it but I don’t agree with how it’s been translated into daygame in practice and I don’t personally follow it. I was taking my “direct” inspiration from elsewhere. Second, so far as I know ARC hasn’t posted any infields or evidence of his results and I don’t know anyone who has doing game with him. I don’t accuse him of lying, but also I don’t take anyone at face value either. In my mind his skills and stories have not been publicly verified. If he provides me links to such evidence I’ll link it here. I did like his book and would recommend anyone with an interest in that kind of thing to check it out. K.]
August 5, 2015 at 12:02 am
“I want to meet you for a drink. You don’t need to promise anything more than that. Oh, and to laugh at my jokes of course.”
This is exactly what I thought Nick would reply. It was a comfort type shit test and he provided the comfort but added some wit to prevent it from giving off a beta vibe. (A kind of pull / push but mild.)
I have been following Nick’s blog for years and I remember him doing this exact thing with past girls especially on dates. I remember one date he had with a native English girl no less (the 29 year old Cornish separatist I think) who after the third venue shit tested him when he invited her back to his place (I think she called him a wanker). Nick gave her a little witty reply and then told her a line I still remember as I’ve used it a few times, “we’ll just go back and have drink and see what happens, you haven’t agreed to anything though.” That was all she needed for her to relax and let the seduction happen.
Nick did the same thing here via text. If he was in town longer he would have gotten the lay. Solid game all the way around.
August 5, 2015 at 12:21 am
August 5, 2015 at 5:50 am
What about “Nothing’s gonna happen we don’t wanna happen”? Or “I like you, I just wanna be close to you, cuddle.,.” I assume (especially 2nd) these are more convincing in person, with honest eyes and personality etc. Would it work if you didn’t play parody pervert before?
Basically reassure her, don’t mention sex directly, show some appreciation and mature control.
August 5, 2015 at 11:37 am
I personally believe Krauser’s approach or mine below which I’ve adapted from Daygame Mastery would be the way to address this. I’ve been able to reverse this.
In one situation, I met a girl, HB7 who at first claimed her English wasn’t very good so was afraid we wouldn’t have anything to talk about. We met up, her English was quite good. We hit it off, I brought her back to my place and we made out. She wouldn’t fuck me saying I had to be her bf first.
I said, I couldn’t be her bf unless we were fucking. I was quite direct with her. I told her I couldn’t move forward on anything unless we were fucking. She said she liked fucking but needed to be in a committed relationship. “Oh well…” I texted and waited a week. Then I suggested a meet up.
Much to my surprise…she was ok to meet up again. So we did, she came over, we made out, I fingered her, she gave me a handjob and I got her top off. This was starting to seem too much like high school. I asked her out one more time. She came over, same deal, handjob, tits out, no bang. Since then I’ve gone silent. She’s writing all sorts of ping texts.
Pull from this whatever you think is relevant to your situation.
August 5, 2015 at 8:32 am
Pretty much the problem I’m having right now. Last year I got lucky with fast fast pulls so I got used to escalating fast. Even though my sets are pretty sexually charged I’m still getting girls that want more than a player or just want to take it slower. On recent dates I’m missing the cues that she want’s something else or that it isn’t going to be a fast pull. This girl though, with everything she said on the date I would have done exactly what you did. Just no way of telling 100% what a girl really wants. I’ve lots girls, before, who looked like they wanted it fast and I made them wait for one stupid reason or the other. I think that sucks more.
August 5, 2015 at 11:29 am
I just had this similar situation. I met a girl at a party, hit it off, number closed her on Facebook and set up drinks. All good. Suddenly she changes the date and offers an alternative. Ok. Then agrees to the new time/date I set and suddenly insists on bringing her friend along saying her English isn’t very good.
Me: Smiles. Sign language, I can practice my Chinese on you. Will be fine don’t worry.
Her; insisting on bringing her friend
Me: Nah. In that case maybe we should meet up another time when you’re more comfortable
Her: Ok sure, next time 🙂
I waited a day, read this analysis and then texted this:
Me: We’ll sell how it goes [made up nick name}
She didn’t reply…yet. We’ll see how this pans out. There was good kino and attraction when we met and good online game when I added her. But clearly what probably happened was she told her friend she was meeting me. Her friend started filling her head with nonsense: “he’s older, he’s foreigner, what will you talk about, you barely know him blah blah blah” then suddenly she starts panicking and wants to invite interloping friend. I saw the friend’s photo on Facebook— a 5 at best. Mine’s an 8.
The one benefit I got from Daygame Mastery and this tutorial was regardless of the reasons for her resistance…do NOT in any way appear needy, if anything, agree to let it go.
Some of the dudes thought I should have gone on this date with the cockblock. I couldn’t see any upside other than being Friendzoned as the judgmental shrew of a friend susses out the dynamic between me and HB8 and sabotages it.
August 5, 2015 at 12:52 pm
I didn’t get to add a comment in the earlier article, But one thing I was going to suggest after reading the text exchange was to go into comfort and drop the playfulness.
Not really advice as you know your stuff.
I’ve lost count how many times girls have openly gone sexual with me, only for the bubble to pop because I failed to dial it down and build more comfort.
I’m also starting to steer away from the canned gamey responses as they feel contrived and girls can sense it.
I think the key thing that most of the commenters have overlooked is that it all has to be calibrated. Once the basics have been honed, it’s then the case of adjusting to the person you’re interacting with. Nick’s girl was very open for banter and probably has a naturally playful personality. So it needed that seriousness to iron out the conversation.
Comparing it to Brazilian Jiu-Jitsu, you can’t do the same thing with every person you roll with as you’ll get destroyed. you have to feel and become sensitive to their movement and respond accordingly. In terms of game, that feeling is social intelligence.
August 5, 2015 at 1:11 pm
@Onder this is where my game is now going. Calibration is key. I had a tendency to over-game or keep ploughing when the best strategy is to dial it down and disappear for while.
August 5, 2015 at 7:15 pm
Yes, agree 100%. Some of these witty comebacks wouldn’t be needed in the first place if the guy in question didn’t give off gamey vibe. I like to use sexual tension and then give comfort in form of authenticity, “love” and self-control rather than classic community comfort.
August 5, 2015 at 3:38 pm
Just wanted to try my hand at a reply…
Her: “… Wouldn’t it be pointless meeting up for a drink tomorrow night if you want to get laid and I don’t?”
You: “I don’t know. I live in the moment.”
(these first 2 sentences are an attempt to communicate authentically – I’m borrowing a bit from Steve here.)
You: “Along with “chocolates” and the last pair of shoes that you bought :p”
(this next part is a gambit to shift the emotional overtone away from the logical and toward happy, bubbly feelings)
August 5, 2015 at 4:30 pm
Krauser, you are my muse! I was inspired to post my insights about using fantasy to beat ASD. Thanks!
August 5, 2015 at 5:45 pm
Krauser, I think some broads are coming over to my blog after reading my comment on yours. You must have a 5h1t ton of broads following your blog.
August 5, 2015 at 7:40 pm
Empathising with women is something that seems to be often overlooked in the PUA world. Since dealing with my inner game issues (letting go of anger, resentment etc) this is something I’ve found a lot easier. It becomes easier to understand what the women feels and understand her perception of the interaction. Previously I thought when woman would try to derail the process it was always a shit test. Now I’ve realised that often you need to show some comfort and that you understand what they are feeling/thinking. This is difficult for most men in this world, since most of us came from low places along with negative past experiences of women. By sorting inner issues out you empathise with women not because you know it is a tactic to get something from them, but because you’ve become a “better” person. Of course you will meet many women out there who are just horrible, but you probably shouldn’t be allowing them to come into your life in the first place.
August 6, 2015 at 12:03 pm
I ironically understood this by getting into a relationship with a girl for 6 months. I’m still regularly seeing her as friends and fucking her from time to time, and it taught me a shit load of what women respond to.
They want to feel connected and understood. Mystery was right when he said ‘The game is played in comfort’. Seduction happens in her mind. The deeper you can engage her mentally, the stronger the bond, the safer she’ll feel and the more likely for her to have sex with you.
Sure you can bypass this with pure r-selection, but it’s very hit and miss and be prepared to get a shit load of buyers remorse after you’ve closed.
August 6, 2015 at 2:55 pm
Comfort is important *at the right time*, *in the right way*, and *of the right kind*. You don’t want to just pour comfort on unless it’s actually needed. You don’t want to give loyalty comfort if your girl’s feelings are hurt because of some slight. You don’t want to try to hold your girl if she’s really angry and feels alienated from you–you have to wait for her anger to start diminishing and then do kino escalation with proper calibration, just as if you were seducing a new girl.
I’ve learned a lot about comfort in the last few weeks. It has helped stabilize Mrs. Gamer’s emotions a lot.
You always want to be amping up attraction. Best if it’s your frame that does it so that no extra energy is required. If your frame generates attractiveness, then there’s no worry about overgaming, since you won’t come off as try hard. Mrs. Gamer flirts with me continually. It’s my frame that generates the attraction.
I’ve been married for over 30 years. Mrs. Gamer is post-menopausal and still looks good. (If I take her to a bar, she will get hit on fairly quickly.) Yesterday she descended to the basement where I was blogging and asked me if I wanted one or two bangs yesterday. Today at 4 a.m. Mrs. Gamer woke me up for sex. Both of these things she decided to do without any prompting from me. Mrs. Gamer is chasing me for sex. Yes, it’s always good to be amping attraction in a relationship.
I haven’t looked at MMSL. My stuff is what I have observed and learned.
August 5, 2015 at 9:24 pm
Do you think that switching to a 2 date template might prevent the asd and lmr that you often get? I get that you are running r-selected / lover frame game, but if you used time restraints on your first dates you would avoid bf frames. I also get that you have time restraints built into your Euro nomad lifestyle but you could compensate by having more 1st dates (of course there are energy levels to deal with). [I simply don’t have the patience for it. I’m trying to slow down. K.]
August 5, 2015 at 10:01 pm
I think you played it great, strong, misdirecting, upbeat without a hint of butthurt-ness. I like the way after the “You don’t need to promiss me anything more than that”, you broke the tension with a humorous comment to prevent it from being dragged into to much seriosness. I also appreciated the emojis after the “inconvieniet logic” line, they key to lighten the mood with a fickle EE woman (EE bitches love emojis). My only minor criticism was the “More please” sounded a bit ingratiating, i think it would of been better “i felt so cool and manly [emoji] [emoji] and left it at that. And maybe excluded the thumbs up which can seem sarcastic, i would of used the winking emoji like we both now understand something together and are on the same page. Overall a great job, this is the reason i have been a loyal reader to this blog for the past few years. Cheers
August 5, 2015 at 11:09 pm
“Nah, won’t be entirely pointless. I’m sure we’ll meet many more times after this one”
What she’s really testing for is consistency. She wants to know she’s got you figured out properly so she can’t commit to it. I.e. She’s hoping you persist with the randy image and that builds comfort because she’ll perceive you’re being yourself and have no filters. Ergo you’re a safe ‘un.
However you also don’t want to overtly play that role because it puts too much pressure on the date and the element of suspense is gone.
August 5, 2015 at 11:10 pm
Can’t = can commit to it
August 7, 2015 at 1:02 am
While you say you don’t have the patience for 2 dates, judging by posts like this it does seem like you enjoy the process of the seduction, or are fascinated by it, at least. As another impatient person, albeit one who plays the game largely via intuition I admire analytic minds who can break stuff down like this.
August 7, 2015 at 7:53 am
I like your writing style, and your blog. But your seduction is just mental masturbation. This isn’t a chess game. The girl either wants to fuck or she doesn’t. When she writes that she’s not interested in sleeping with you just quit there and find a different bird that does. So many of them walking the streets. Instead of analyzing just keep opening and closing. You’re not going to make a cold girl hot. Sexuality and horniness is a built-in thing. Some girls just want to fuck. Focus on those. There’s so many of them I don’t understand why you keep chasing. Fuck your long game.