On our first night we try a little gutter game. The sun has set but the streets are still buzzing. We get refused entry to a teenybopper bar because a chode pub crawl company has commandeered the whole bar. A snotty tart organising it nearly gets punched off Tom but while it’s not the greatest emotional control I’ve ever seen at least the anger gets our state up. We head to the bridge and start pinging girls.
There’s a solo South Korean taking photos. Tom sidles over and opens. It’s a good hook. She’s on her last day, by herself touring Europe. We inquire whether she likes adventure, whether she likes the anonymity of travelling alone where “anything can happen.” Ten minutes later we are in a strip bar with her, escalating. Her verbals are all no-no-no but she’s taking the physical escalation like a trooper. She’s not so hot, a six. Young.
Tom and I just keep hammering it, looking at each other and chuckling as we bring out all our cheesy gambits. Yes, she’s a hamster. No, she’s not dated an English guy. Yes, she is a rebel. No, she’s a good girl. etc etc etc. It’s like watching an SDL on 4x fast forward. We’re amazed its getting as far as it does. After the beer we take her to look at the strippers. She likes the one on the right, she answers. Better legs, sexier dance. Fuck it, 45 minutes in we pull the trigger and walk her 50m to our apartment.
She won’t come in. So two steps back, walk her to the main square to take photos. Tom’s playing with her hands, I’m “driving” her using her shoulders. She’s still accepting all the physical escalation. We are starting to believe she might be corraled into a spit roast and then……. pop! Her brain fuzz clears and the shutters slam down. No, she won’t kiss me. No, she won’t put her hand on my dick. And no, she won’t come back to the apartment.
July 24, 2013 at 7:00 pm
Ha that music took me right back to watching you in the old days!
July 24, 2013 at 7:16 pm
Seducing Koreans in Prague…that’s like ordering coffee in a Prague pub instead of Pilsner. Good but not really what you came for in the first place. But I guess it’s harder to play Czechs at their stadium. Value matters. [No. Czechs were easier. K.]
July 24, 2013 at 7:26 pm
Only now I watched the vid. That’s what I call productivity.
July 24, 2013 at 10:49 pm
Thanks for the video. It’s really a honest piece. I had bootcamp with Tom 1 month ago. Last weekend in Prague I had 13 approaches/5 contacts/2 instadates/2 later dates (1 with South Korean who saw me approach 3 other girls :)) and no lay :(. I was frankly disappointed but seeing stats of a pro sets my expectations straight. I hope you had a good fun and thanks for the video.
July 24, 2013 at 10:51 pm
Oh and yes, it was boasting as I did more cold approaches in a weekend than most of the men do in their life!
July 25, 2013 at 5:03 am
exactly. although 13 approaches, why so few, were you being extra picky about who you talked to? i think 10 quality approaches per day is very doable, and if you’re only in town for two days, 15-20 per day is also doable.
July 25, 2013 at 2:22 am
Nice choice of music — sure reminds me of some Woody Allen movie.
Thanks for the video — fun entertainment.
Please tell me the title of that music. [Rhumba Negro by Bennie Morton. I got it from the Black Cotton 2 CD which is full of that style. Available here. All their music is good for when a girl is in your house. K.]
July 25, 2013 at 4:57 am
Gutter game is the best new term in the manosphere.
July 25, 2013 at 5:00 am
what an intro! love it.
July 25, 2013 at 5:12 am
excellent video. the stats are very helpful:
3 days, about 50 selective approaches, 17 contact info, about 8 replied, and a total of 5 dates (3 instant dates and 2 day twos), zero lays so far, mostly number farming.
this is in contrast to me in stockholm my first 3 days:
3 days, about 50 selective approaches, 11 numbers, 3-4 facebook, about 5 text replies, 1 day two yesterday, 1 day two tonight, zero lays so far.
July 25, 2013 at 7:25 am
Neither Krauser or I found our flow or form on that trip; it was the heat and slight fatigue from hitting it hard in London the previous week. In 3 days of a Euro trip the stats should be higher (especially if you do proper gutter game each night, which we didn’t).
From 50 approaches, you should be able to get at least 20 contact details and 8-10 dates (same trip or through long game). A lay or three should be certain, especially if you’re going back to reap the crops of the number farming efforts.
If you want to be certain of a lay each trip then just do gutter game without a phone – hitting the streets sober from 11pm – 3am around the bars / clubs and filtering hard for bounce-backs. Top quality, however, will always be found during the day and through subsequent dating.
As Nick and I always stress, a Euro trip should really be 7-10 days to be productive (longer for FSU countries), otherwise it’s just a number farming mission and a return trip will be needed.
July 25, 2013 at 5:36 pm
Great information Tommo. Thanks. Always appreciate real number breakdowns.
By the way, what a stunning garden backdrop your parents have on the bristol channel – lucky buggers
July 27, 2013 at 10:04 pm
excellent tom, thank you. copying and pasting and saving here:
July 25, 2013 at 3:11 pm
I have a friend of mine who used to be ex project entourage for Adam Lyons and he consistently lays top quality girls with little approaches.
I had a discussion about this with him not too long ago and it was mutually agreed that a person who goes out cold approaching hard every day is simply doing way too much work for little reward in the long term, which could otherwise be applied in more efficient and smarter ways.
Granted, while it’s great to perfect and master the skill. There will come a point where continuing to do it will start to become a bottleneck.
The solution would be to start focusing on other areas of your life (lifestyle, hobbies, fashion, social circle, physique etc)
Because of my friends lifestyle and being very successful in his own right for his still young age. He’s able to meet girls consistently when he’s out and about and get laid more regularly.
In short, the higher value you have and the more you build yourself up, the less you have to approach to get a lay.
This is a fact…
Cold approach is simply the hardest form of Game you can do because.
a) The girl doesn’t know you
b) You’re relying on your verbal skills to demonstrate you value, which will never be as powerful as ‘non-verbal’ (lifestyle)
So the hard facts are… If you have to approach 50 times to get a lay or 2, then it simply means you’re working way too hard for little rewards.
Game doesn’t have to be difficult.
Example scenario of how I run my game:
– Meet girl for day 2
– **Take her to a venue where my value is high and increase her attraction/buying temperature** — (Non verbal)
– Bounce her back to her for a movie (sex)
– Get laid
Typical PUA model
– Meet girl for day 2
– Take her to a few bars for a few drinks and run ‘comfort’/’qualification game — (Verbal)
– Bounce her back to hers for a movie/watching cats do backflips (Sex)
– Get laid after a few hours of resistance.
Just a few ideas
[Most of my readers will spot this comment for the self-aggrandizing frame control effort that it is but for those who take it at face value, I’ll respond. You are trying to reframe my message into a “ignore value, be approach machine” straw man and yourself as operating on a higher plain. To do so requires you to claim “working on your value” is in your message and not in mine, which is a transparent lie. Dropping in Adam’s name doesn’t have credibility here because he’s long been exposed as full of shit. You also reframe “work” so that it includes cold approach but doesn’t include all the constant effort to build and maintain the lifestyle you rely on for the heavy lifting, thus allowing you to move to the preposterous statement that going out six or seven hours a week to daygame is harder work than running an ecosystem. Skilled cold approach is actually far less work and far more efficiently directed to finding and filtering girls than Dwarf-On-A-Mountain game. You also reframe “value” in daygame as simply verbals when it’s actually the purest possible filter a girl can apply to you by seeing everything about you exactly as you are rather than the smoke and mirrors of ecosystem game. And of course you miss out the single most important step – meeting the girl in the first instance.
While I’m not sure how noble your intent is on this comment (and you might be sincerely trying to add value) I highlight this to my readers as an example of just how sophisticated intermediate PUAs can be in frame-controlling the shit out of you, sucking your state, and then patting you on the back like they did you a favour in positioning themselves above you. Beware. K.]
July 25, 2013 at 3:25 pm
Just a little idea next time you boys go away together.
Here’s a slight twist to ‘gutter game’ that i personally use to get laid and works wonders:
– Meet a group of girls on the street
– Bounce them all to a bar or tag along, offering to buy them all a round of shots (insta spcial-proof and pre selection)
– Use them to game other top notch birds in the bar.
– Pick a target and bounce her back to yours.
[Consider this Plan B if those girls on the street didn’t fancy you. K.]
July 25, 2013 at 5:10 pm
Bloody daft idea
July 25, 2013 at 5:11 pm
Adam is a chump.
July 25, 2013 at 7:22 pm
I’m sincerely trying to add value.
Krauser. I’m not trying to reframe anyone here. It’s simply a way for me to add value. Whether it’s for or against your views isn’t what my focus is, merely to say what I have to say based on my own experience in the community and to hopefully have someone read it with an open mind.
My philosophy is, if it works, it works.
There’s no right and wrong in game, it’s what makes it so alluring. [Ok, cool. My point stands, even if you weren’t the right guy to make it with. K.]
July 27, 2013 at 10:10 pm
brutal takedown, nick.
although i do think your reply is off by one phrase, lifestyle is not “smoke and mirrors”, right?
the lifestyle value vs cold approach value issue is something i’ve been thinking about a lot, recently, and just wrote about today:
July 25, 2013 at 8:43 pm
I understand the point Joel is trying to make and respect him for making it here (fuck lyons, couldn’t give a shit about him and his daft haircuts).
I’m going to get the shit flamed out of me but here goes:
I truly can’t be arsed to elaborate and will get flamed even for this small snippet: as much as I greatly respect Nick, Tom and the rest of “pro” PUAs putting in the work with high approach numbers, not enough emphasis is given on coming into these interactions with maximum possible masculine value, and specifically on building up that value away from the daygame arena.
By value I am referring to career, finances, political/social status, body build, intellectual mastery, gravitas, clothes and style etc. The emphasis is always on finessing spam approaches because thats what sells bootcamps, not how to become a better man. Some like Mr Jabba (gym/nutrition) and Nick (intellectual mastery/martial arts etc) do delve into deeper masculine relevant topics to their credit but in general the message pedalled seems to be that if you can perfect your yad stop, you will lay 10s [I don’t pedal this. K.]. You will eventually….after 1000+ approaches. Put a monkey and a typewritter in a room for several millennia and at some point we will type out the complete works of shakespeare. I’m an Ibanking guy and that ROI doesn’t compute. [fifteen approaches a day on a holiday is not spamming. K.]
I’m here to tell you that when I go to FSU, I work exclusively on high calibre girls 8.5+s, low number of approaches (5 to 10 a day, mainly in the most exclusive shopping districts and clubs), high quality girls and despite having a number of properties, my own business with several employees and having most of the fundamentals mentioned above under control, I struggle to bring enough value to the table to generate enough dates to get lays with these top calibre girls, because tomorrow she’s being taken to Biarritz by my competitor in his ferrari. I’ve finished some of these trips with 30 dates (some girls multiple dates obviously) and no lays. [Um…. you might want to do some deeper introspection on this. Three times in the past two years I’ve stolen a millionaire’s girl with barely more than a cup of coffee. I had a girl turn down a prince of Dubai to date me (didn’t get past a makeout, though). You have to get away from this idea that career / money is value over and above charisma, authenticity and calibration. You fight a shark on the beach, not in the water. My guess is you still have alot of chump in you so you get outmatched on the money by rich guys (external value) while you can’t get the girl to judge you on internal value (the Jabba method) K.]
So what Joel is saying rings true, especially with the top girls we all aspire to. Combine an approach ethic with real fundamental masculine value you have built up away from daygame, and you become a God.
July 25, 2013 at 9:55 pm
Spot on Alex.
I don’t disagree with what Krauser and Tom does. Kudos to them both for putting in the approach numbers.
As i said, you have to come away from it at some point and work on your other qualities. If you combine your seduction skills you’ve acquired through day game with everything else going for you that you’re also continuing to work hard on. The game suddenly becomes that much easier. Far less approaches and higher quality girls.
I’m actually surprised Krauser argued against it since he touched on this in a talk he did, realizing that approaching and racking numbers isn’t the answer and that working on yourself to become a complete man is.
I’ve personally noticed the more value i’m building, the more fuck ups I can make and get away with. Explaining the whole case of the girl sticking by her abusive husband due to love.
I have a lot of alternative theories about the game that goes against the common beliefs and writings on the manosphere but will refrain from doing so as it will be devalued and get misconstrued for trying to frame control people. [Write your own blog. Really, I don’t mean that snarkily. If you’ve got some new thoughts the manosphere will benefit from it. K.]
July 25, 2013 at 11:41 pm
I’ve “delved” into a lot more than just gym on my blog. To be fair I don’t write too much at the moment as it doesn’t pay the bills.
Book will be out soon.
You’re still waaaaaaaaaaaaaaaay off with masculine value though. You probably don’t feel worthy on a core level. They’re just girls at the end of the day.
(I will admit I am aiming to make a lot more money for myself but at nearly 38 years old i’ve never needed it and have pulled the 8.5’s – 10s you reference on here quite a lot, when I can be arsed)
July 25, 2013 at 8:45 pm
BTW love the video and droll commentary, had me LOLing!
July 25, 2013 at 9:09 pm
Why is Adam Lyons full off shit/a chump?
July 25, 2013 at 11:43 pm
Shit stir alert
July 26, 2013 at 10:26 am
Adam is a marketer par exellence, and a very good persuasive public speaker. His old entourage-style of game (based around club promotion and table hosting) is now considered long-winded, inauthentic and outdated compared to the direct masculine mindset and method that Krauser, Jabba and myself preach.
Joel’s comment above sums up the old skool mindset: “party close” girls by being friendly during the day and invite them to a bar / club, get them drinks and then pray that social proof kicks in. If you’re lucky, leave with a HB6 who’s too drunk to remember her own name.
I hosted tables at clubs in London for a while with the guy that taught Adam Lyons this method (Beckster) and have seen how inefficient and convoluted it all is compared to direct street game. Not to mention the fact that it makes you feel creepy as fuck – what I term “snake seduction” – as you have to hide your intent, invest hours of work, and then cross your fingers it all works.
1. Stop a girl and tell her you find her attractive
2. Bounce to a cafe and then home / take her number, go on a date and take her home
1. Stop a group of girls and befriend them
2. Get them to a club where you have table / drinks
3. Use them to build attraction from other girls based on pre-selection
4. Run usual nightgame, with all its complications
5. Take a girl home / take a number, go on a date and take a girl home
July 26, 2013 at 6:09 pm
I do get on big level what you, Krauser and Steve is saying, which makes perfect sense.
But what i’m seeing consistently now based on my first hand experience in game is that there’s a bigger picture that’s in play that influences a girl’s decision to want to be with you.
I would say my daygame skill is about intermediate stage, in that I can close 3 of the 50 girls i number close.
I also consider myself a worthy guy who deserves a good quality girl. But I know it’s not enough since it takes more than just being worthy. It’s very easy to believe in your own value and have inner confidence, but there’s no way for anyone to know or see your value without being able to communicate and market it in some way.
In my last few lays, it’s been very very easy, and not understanding why until recently.
The girls i met were all from a result of the lifestyle I was building for myself. So the approaches were luke warm meaning they were already attracted to me pre approach due to seeing my social status in the venue (being good friends with the organizers, girls approaching and wanting to dance with me, being given free entry etc) in addition to my sense of direction, ambition and generally being a happy and more fulfilled person overall.
In short, i’ve come to realize that a girls impression and judgement of a man is purely based on how he interacts with the world and how the world interacts and treats him because it’s the biggest tell tale sign of a man’s true value.
A needy, unattractive man will simply have no social value for people to want to treat him any better.
In short, the most effective way is having a girl see it without you saying a single word.
Similar to business where a customer notices other big companies crediting yours, giving you value, recognition and authority and have it directly influence the customer to want to buy from you. Compare this to an anonymous sales person trying to influence you to buy his products… A massive contrast.
In daygame, you’re essentially the ‘anonymous salesman’. All you have is your wit and charm to pull it off, which is why most of the girls start off defensive and uncertain.
The only few occasions i’ve seen a man pull a perfect 10 consistently through daygame (if any) was a guy who was tall, built and super good looking, meaning he had enough passive value up front (looks) to do little leg work in the interaction to close the deal.
This has nothing to do with masculinity or vibe, but simply how effective you are at displaying your attractive qualities in daygame without any handicaps which is where skill and practice comes in.
Based on this, I will also say this, which goes completely against everything that’s being said in the manosphere…. Being Alpha, Beta, Delta, Gamma is all a myth.
If you’re an attractive guy and the girl is super into you. You can be the gayest looking and most beta guy in the world. The girl will still want to fuck you, assuming you’re her type.
You can be anything in the world, but as long as you display all the attractive qualities (fundamentals) a girl is looking for, she will have no choice but be invested in you.
This is my experience. I could be completely wrong with all of this, but it’s always a good idea to keep an open mind as nothing in life is ever set in stone.
July 26, 2013 at 8:24 am
I like the way you’re sitting and that kind of look of disinterest. I try to do this as well.
July 26, 2013 at 12:10 pm
Jabba’s the daddy. That video of him coming onto some lass in the street was a different level. Its the unapologetic sexual desire in what he’s doing. I approach a woman like I’m apologizing for having a dick.
July 26, 2013 at 10:03 pm
Biology and the mating ritual IS set in stone.
What you’re describing is still the concept of Entourage Game. Having “value” in a social circle (based on pre-selection) needs you to have that “lifestyle” – the venue, the promoter friends, the free entry for the girls etc. It’s what Krauser and I call Snake Seduction. I’m not denying it works, but it’s a smoke-and-mirrors technique that stops working when you step out from that ecosystem you’ve created.
Daygame requires no prefabricated “lifestyle” of a club bubble. It’s a real test of your underlying true lifestyle (health, fashion, confidence, conversational skills, seduction skills) as on the street all you have is yourself. No friends to DHV you, no free entry for the girls as a carrot on a stick, no dance floor moves, no jealousy plotlines. Just you and the girl, face to face, “value to value.” High value girls don’t sleep with low value guys. End of.
What you’re describing is creating artificial value. And you’re right – for a time it works. Even the most chronic gamma can get laid by being the bassist in a one-hit-wonder rock band. But when the touring ends and he’s no longer recognised, he’s back to square one.
Stand alone on the street in front of a “HB10” and she’ll let you know what your real value is pretty sharpish. It’s a limiting belief that you can’t get the hottest girls through pure daygame – there’s plenty of video evidence of Krauser and I doing it, and we’re ugly fuckers 😉
Read my detailed post on it here:
I’d stop peddling your thoughts on Entourage Game before Krauser and Jabba get their teeth into you.
July 27, 2013 at 10:15 pm
this is a fascinating exchange. great stuff tom.
July 27, 2013 at 10:27 am
On a side note, that girl behind you is putting way too much effort for a picture on her phone…
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July 27, 2013 at 10:19 pm
the way i see lifestyle game is, for example for me, the ideal situation: work hard on my photography, get an exhibition, and meet girls at the opening. it is not false club game, it is just me doing what i love, and displaying. actually someone who wrote well about this was susan, of all people. it bothers me linking to her, but this post is excellent:
four words: passion, mastery, display, compatibility.
anyway, that’s how i see lifestyle game. and that’s actually what i focused on for the past two years, building up my photography/artistic value. but then a few months ago i said fuck it, i gotta become a daygame master too.
July 28, 2013 at 6:00 am
It’s about investment. What are you prepared to do to get pussy?
Think about it this way : if you are able to pick up hot girls consistently in the course of your daily life, why would you go to all this effort of fannying around in nightclubs every weekend?
I’m nearly 38 now and the last thing I want to do is waste my time mincing around someone else’s basement at 3 in the am!
Now you might say : some guys enjoy this lifestyle…Possibly. But as you get past your early / mid 30s – 15 years in the nightclub game – is it really something you want to be doing? What about when you’re past 40?
I did it for many years and by 34 or so I had enough.
All this talk of pre fabricated value through “social circle” or some such nonsense is just bollocks. I’ve seen it all before. You’ll get a certain type of girl that way but not the kind of top tier girls that I go for (and get).
Think about it : most of the best fashion models won’t be found in supposedly “high end” nightclubs with promoter dudes. You’ll get some “pretty” girls but not the cream…Not the best quality.
These kind of girls are at private events, don’t go out at all, or wander around in the daytime ;-).
If they did, you’d STILL need to display the universally attractive qualities that attract them anyway!!
At the end of the day, an attractive man is an attractive man. For you guys who keep banging on about nightclubs, entourage type game, I would guess you don’t know what that actually means…
By the way, I’m not saying “daygame” is a panacea either. There is actually no such thing. It just boils down to what suits you best and (in my case at least) involves the minimum amount of effort possible. That’s why you always start on perfecting yourself first so that you take care of lowering the effort required in ANY environment (i.e. you can pull on autopilot, girls will fall for you regardless if you’re broke, not socially hooked up etc etc – just through force of personality, masculinity etc). I can tell from some of the comments on here that some of you don’t get that.
Once you’ve taken care of that, it’s then time to worry about access and availability to the top drawer girls. In *some* countries / places that is a real issue. To a certain event, London is one of those places.
Becoming a promoter (which is essentially what Joel et al is talking about is not a mature and intelligent solution to this (at least, not by my definition of top drawer girls). You need either:
An ability to infiltrate “movers and shakers” and the top social groups, fashion model parties, model agencies etc (good luck with that) – I’ve met guys like this
Move to a place where there are SO many hot girls that the whole fucking argument becomes redundant (You might be able to imagine where these places are)
Build a structure / ecosystem around yourself – where hot girls are funnelled into your lifestyle anyway. (I know guys who do this). (You need money and financial independence too)
For all 3 of those options, you’ll STILL do better if you have perfected yourself first.
So let’s drop all this entourage / promoter shite!
July 29, 2013 at 2:42 am
You’ve hit the nail on the head Steve,
Entourage game is a loud of bollocks. I did the whole nightclub thing back in 2008 when I first joined the community and tagged along with some nightclub promoters and instantly saw it for what it was.
It’s all fake. None of it is a reflection of who you are and is simply designed to attract superficial girls who in the long run, isn’t worth the effort anyway.
There’s nothing better than to stand in front of a girl as you are and to have her become attracted to you. It’s the ultimate way to increase your self-confidence and self-esteem knowing that ‘you are enough’.
January 26, 2017 at 4:56 am
Was looking for more details on the day in, day out of the first days of an adventure sex trip. I want a comparative gauge for my trip.
This video was exactly what I was looking for.
My stats are about 30% “as good” as yours here in Tokyo on this trip…
— 100 approaches in 6 days out, maybe
— About the same number of contacts in 2X the approaches, 23 contacts (20 Line, 2 FB, 1 WeChat)
— Dated 2 girls so far, 2X each, kissed one (modest kiss), kiss the others neck, but she is enjoying the chase
— Have 3rd dates set up with both of those girls in the next three days (they are 17 and 20 years younger than me)
— 3rd new girl is eager for a date in a day or so… looking fwd to her
— Dated a girl I picked up on my last trip as well, kissed her on two different dates (I don’t think she will ever come home with me)
— No sex, no one back to my apartment yet
— Many girls in negotiation
— I’m on about 2.5 weeks of daygame… so I’m moving slower, despite my real effort
— Language barrier is real here (In terms of taking contacts), but I know that doesn’t always matter
Thanks for sharing that.
>> From 50 approaches, you should be able to get at least 20 contact details and 8-10 dates
I am a little hung up on the approach to contact ratio. That “should” doesn’t land for me. Contact for every 2.X girls?? I can do that, in short streaks, but to expect that over 50 girls as “reasonable.” Not sure I buy that.
And Tom’s date stat — that you should get almost 50% out on a date — suspiciously high. That means less than 1/2 “go no where” and the other 1/2 come out?? I am assuming I show less value than you guys, and my text game is worse (I know my text game is worse), but that’s still high… based on the way girls are, not your skills.
I am at about 1 lay in 100 approaches now. I think 1 in 40 is very doable for me, in the next year. “A lay **or 3**” in 50 approaches… I think it a hot streak, not a fair gauge. I think Tom is being misleading there… as gauge… if not his own stats. [I don’t vouch for Tom’s stats. That’s something to take up with him. 20 contacts and 10 dates from 50 opens seems wildly optimistic and a massive improvement on when I used to wing with him and on everyone else I know who does daygame. K.]
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