The elephant in the room

May 14, 2013

I rarely solicit guest posts but sometimes I just want the free content come across a concept too good to ignore.’s executive instructor Tom Torero has been exploring such a concept which we put to good use on our recent FSU tour. He’ll need no introduction to most of my readers, being widely considered one of Europe’s top daygamers and of course the author of the second best daygame book on the market. Tom, the floor is yours……

A street kiss close I caught

A street kiss close I caught *

Elephant in the room: a metaphorical idiom for an obvious truth that is either being ignored or going unaddressed. The idiomatic expression also applies to an obvious problem or risk no one wants to discuss.

Smoke-and-mirrors, a masterful illusion, distraction and persuasion. Traditional Game involves getting a girl to comply to sex through the use of tools and techniques that sweep logic and reality under the carpet. It’s no coincidence that the most notorious early pick up artists were magicians and persuasion practitioners. Artificially raise your value, cunningly lower hers, and let the reversal chase begin.

A massively underrated and underused concept in the seduction community is something I teach students called the “Elephant In The Room” (although I dissuade you, of course, from picking up elephants) where this traditional trickery is replaced with stone cold masculine honesty. Showing a girl how socially intelligent you are, and also how vulnerable you are, is massively attractive. More attractive than the perfect line or the whitest teeth. Honesty is the ultimate frame in that you’re saying: “I know that you know that I know what’s going on. I’m direct with my intentions and I don’t play games.”

The concept is especially applicable during the day, as there’s no flashing lights, pumping music or alcohol to help mask from the girl from what’s really going on. Stopping a girl on the street in the cold light of day encourages a student to refine his social intelligence and replace distraction with directness as there’s nowhere to hide. Women have hyper sensitive radars when it comes to bullshit, and without the shiny la-la-land vibe of a club then they’re even more clued up as to what’s going on. If she thinks you’re a pick-up artist on the street, then you’re dead.

"say what you see"

“say what you see”

So what are some practical examples of this concept in action? First off, a golden rule that I teach students is to “say what you see.” This is much harder than it sounds in that you need to be fully relaxed and present to do this effectively, without the chattering monkey inside your head throwing PUA bananas at you.

Saying what you see and calling out awkwardness immediately diffuses whatever tricky situation you might come across, as it shows the girl you’re socially savvy and smart enough to understand the intricacies and nuances of human behaviour.

Let’s say you see a girl on her smoke break standing outside an office building. A beginner daygamer might charge up to her in approach machine mode and spurt out his usual lines about just seeing her and thinking she looked nice, then plough through her resistance with his usual structure and get frustrated when she stubs out her cigarette and nips back into work. Someone who understands the Elephant In The Room principle, however, would approach the girl with more of a twinkle in his eyes, a cocky smile and the following:

“Hey, I know you’re on your sacred smoke break and I’m taking away precious seconds, but I just saw you and think you look nice”

He’d then rapidly judge how she responded and tailor his conversation accordingly. Perhaps he’d call out how unusual it was for someone to come up to her, or the fact that all the other guys must think of doing it but they’re not brave enough. The same applies if you see a girl at a bus stop (call out the fact that her bus is coming) or inside a store (call out the fact that it’s unusual why you’re in a women’s clothing store). If you didn’t call out the awkwardness of the situation then she’d be thinking it, and wondering why you didn’t have the social saviness to spot it.

Here’s some other examples of calling out the Elephant In The Room when you’re out doing daygame:

  • She’s doing a particular activity, and you use that as a situational indirect-direct opener
  • You run out of things to say, and you call it out: “I’m sorry, my mind’s just gone blank, help me out a bit!”
  • You feel heavy approach anxiety, and you call it out: “I don’t normally do this, and I’m pretty nervous right now….”
  • She keeps glancing down at her phone and you mention it playfully
  • She slowly edges away as you’re talking and you mention it playfully
  • The interaction’s going well but you suspect that she has a boyfriend based on her investment levels, so you call it out non-reactively

Notice how the Elephant In The Room principle needs to come from a place of flirtation, not one of cold logic. You’re showing her that you are fluent in the secret language of seduction, not that you’re a people-watching sociologist.

Spot the PUA forum HB7.75

Spot the PUA forum HB7.75

Krauser and I recently spent a couple of weeks in Russia where we realised that the Elephant In The Room principle could be used to great effect. Slavic women are excellent for testing your masculinity in that they have zero-tolerance for bullshit and expect you to be crystal clear with your intentions. We made sure they new exactly what we wanted through calling out the following:

  • the fact that this was a male-female interaction where we were attracted to them and wanted to date them, not give them free conversational English classes
  • what their relationship status was, and whether they liked British guys
  • if they had enough free time to come on a date with us in our time schedule

Now I’m not suggesting that you replace all unspoken, sexy emotional subtext with cold logic, but in countries where the women test your polarity every few seconds then there’s less time for flowery language and vague flirtation. The same would apply in the UK or the USA if a girl is exhibiting Princess Behaviour and keeps trying to snatch the frame.

The Elephant In The Room applies to texting and to dating, right up until you’re getting it on. Here are some more examples:

  • she keeps flaking on date requests, so you text her: “I didn’t have you down as a flaker…my secretary is not happy ;-)”
  • she texts that she’s going to be late, so you text her: “Ok, but you buy the first drinks as punishment”
  • you spill the wine whilst trying to pour it elegantly and call it out
  • she keeps taking long phone calls whilst on the date, and you call it out
  • you’re both a bit nervous on the date, and you call it out
  • you realise you’ve got food stuck between your teeth, so you call it out
  • you spot that she’s hesitant to come back to yours, so you call it out: “I know you’re wondering if I’m a murderer, and I understand that this is all a bit fast, but come for one drink and I’ll have you home in a cab by 12”

Humility and honesty go a long way to cracking the code of last minute resistance in the bedroom. If a girl thinks it’s all too planned or too slick, then the barriers come up. If you call out that it’s “so fast” and that it’s “so random” how you met then she admires your social intelligence. Tell her you’re nervous if you’re nervous, show her you’re human.

An exception to the Elephant In The Room principle is breaking sexual tension. If you’re sitting in the cocktail bar, looking deeply into each other’s eyes, and there’s the crackle of sex in the air, then there’s no reason to call out the Elephant and say: “I want to kiss you now then take you home and have sex.” That would be a sign of a complete lack of understanding when it comes to seduction. Rather than these situations and silences being elephants, I call them the panthers in the room. Dark, smouldering, powerful and sexy. And completely necessary.

Krauser used an extreme example of the Elephant In The Room on one of his recent dates, although this is not for the faint hearted or to be used by beginners:

K: You are fascinated by me. You find me attractive and very interesting, like no man you’ve met before. You’ve realised that we are not compatible in the long term but you are curious how it would be to have sex with me. So right now you are trying to decide whether to come home with me and have sex, or to go home and sleep.

Her: Yes, that’s about right.

Call it out. Neutralise the awkwardness by commenting on it. Whether it’s a pigeon shitting on your head mid set or the fact that she’s too tall for you, say what you see and point out the elephant. Fingers crossed it will morph into a panther. Now that’s magic.

Tom’s book is available to buy from: Lulu

* Before you all ask, yes that was a legit street kiss close. Took about five minutes from the open. While observing I saw him do the eyes, the proximity and overheard him mutter something about “doing something crazy” so I knew to get the phone camera ready.


  1. I’ve enjoyed your book, some good tips, I recall you mentioning this too in terms of using it as an anti-LMR strategy

  2. “where this traditional trickery is replaced with stone cold masculine honesty.”

    brilliant. beautiful. yohami called this alpha sincerity. every day more, i am beginning to see how important and powerful this concept is. it’s “be yourself” taken to the masculine extreme. it’s being proud and confident of your masculine core. or, again, like yohami said, it’s don’t hide your cock.

    thanks tom and nick. you UK men are really at the forefront of game.

  3. Street kiss closes = flash game = almost certain flake. [Sometimes yes, sometimes no. I got a street kiss three days earlier and had the girl on my bed the next evening (but couldn’t beat LMR). Tom was just having fun cos he sensed the girl was unavailable. K.]

    Beyond the inner game building value, its bad technique and unfortunately many noobs will take them as a goal to aspire to.

  4. Hello Tom – interesting. I think you guys are onto something, I wanted to point out at least 2 contradictions I see with traditional PUA advice.

    1. You are saying “point out the obvious truth in the room, even if if you are pointing out something that does not put you in best light”. Traditional PUA would say “Ignore anything that doesnt help you. and so will she.”

    The thinking is that in a 2 person interaction only one person can control the frame. When you as the man ignore something, — even where you fuck up, or circumstances that work against you – the girl will also ignore it, because whoever is controlling the frame, controls what is being paid attention to and what is not. “Whatever you do not draw attention to, is not paid attention to. ”

    You are saying ‘ No, that kind of frame control does not work in reality.’ This is an interesting contradiction with the usual PUA advice

    2. You are saying in day game to basically call out “This is a man talking to a woman” and things like “do you like british guys”

    This contradicts people like Roosh in “Day Bang” who flat out says “NEVER go direct during the day.” He advises to chat up girls like an elderly person (“elderly chat’) where you talk about benign subjects. Going direct will “Scare away the kitten”. The girl will put two and two together on her own. Roosh believes that you cannot go sexual with a girl during the day because she is not in a sexual mood.

    So this is a second contradiction. Again, I think you guys are onto something. Late last year, following Krauser, I started going more direct during day. I immediately got more rejections, but also more solid leads,

    Its important to keep in mind that Game is a system still being fleshed out. It is not set in stone, circa 2002. In some cases, the advice is flat out wrong.

    • Too much unnecessary theoretical worry LWM. What I wrote comes from experiential evidence alone – thousands of approaches, over 250 dates and 130 lays in the last four years. It’s only a contradiction in terms of what you’ve read as online hypotheses.

      Seduction is full of apparent cognitive dissonance, and that’s what makes it so alluring.

    • Whether you go direct or indirect, if they turn up for a date then they know you want to fuck them. So perhaps the essence of the indirect/direct ‘argument’ is in the framing of the situation beforehand?

      I’m not sure there is a universal answer to this question because it’s probably contingent on whatever the player is comfortable with and the natural aura that he gives off. The latter is important because it is going to be easier for some guys to give off a sexual vibe even if he is indirect.

      As I understand it the key argument against indirect is that it seduces some guys into entering friend zone territory or just wasting time. And frankly when you see some of these PUA in fields where the guys are charging around telling girls they ‘look amaaaazing’ like some kind of Gok Wan wannabe (but without the testosterone) you can certainly understand the argument. However the danger of wasting time with indirect is probably more related to the kind of vibe that a guy gives off.

      For example if you are the type that never finds yourself having a problem with sexual escalation and (equally importantly) having women that do not find you sexually attractive filter you out, then indirect may be a better option. If this type of guy goes full on direct, it may overwhelm and trigger ASD.

      On the other hand if you find that you frequently need to verbally ratify sexual intent in some of the ways described above then direct maybe a more efficacious approach.

    • One of the things i’ve noticed and have often tried to tell other guys who are just getting into this is that the opener doesn’t matter and is simply just that. An opener.

      Beyond that, the most important thing you have to do when interacting with a girl is to start the flirting process as quickly as possible. You can open with the most mundane and the most indirect way and still communicate your intent.

      The community doesn’t recommend going indirect because for beginners, it’s difficult to convey your sexuality due to lack of experience and calibration.

      But once you get the dynamic between men and women and fully grasp it, you can talk about anything and still turn the girl on.

      The daygame blueprint refers to this as the ‘Attraction stage’. All it is, is the fundamentals of flirting and is broken down in a way that beginners can understand.

      The reason why Krauser and Tom suggest to say something cheeky when creating an assumption is it sets up the conversation to flirt. You’ll find when you do this, you naturally start to become playful and will begin vibing naturally. That’s because it’s meant to be natural. We all have it in us after all as it’s ingrained within our nature.

      The model is simply there to help bring it out of us.

  5. interesting commentary LWM. i would say that the biggest problem with going indirect is that you are not addressing your own fears, your own needs, your own cock. you are hiding your cock. that’s not to say that going indirect is always wrong. the problem and the danger is that it can be a patch. a man needs to own his sexual need, his sexual desire, and be proud of his sexual need and his sexual desire. don’t hide your cock. love your cock. my cock is beautiful. my cock is magnificent. if i don’t love my dick, how can i expect a girl to love my dick?

    the key in game — and in life — is to be comfortable in your own skin. love yourself. accept yourself. i was raised catholic, and was raised with a lot of guilt and shame about my masculine sexuality, about sex in general, about nudity, all that stuff. plus i was shy.

    every day now, since i discovered game, i get more and more in touch with my masculine core, my sexual core, and every day more, i am proud of being a man, and proud of wanting to fuck girls, give them pleasure, and add value in their lives.

    girls LOVE cock. girls LOVE dick. girls LOVE adventure. girls LOVE thrills. girls LOVE danger. girls LOVE excitement. girls LOVE drama. girls LOVE a bit of pain. girls LOVE to feel things. i am tremendously valuable to a girl because i can give her all that. pleasure, pain, adventure, thrills, danger, drama, excitement, vulnerability, tenderness, joy — i can make her feel all that stuff.

    but i can’t make her feel all that stuff if i don’t share it. and i can’t share it confidently and proudly if i am not confident in myself and proud of my masculinity.

    stone cold masculine honesty.

    raw, unfiltered alpha sincerity.


    this is the way forward.

  6. Could the elephant in the room be when you are obviously many years older than she is?
    And if so, how would you suggest confronting it?

    • good question. i would address it.

      what i do with a girl in her late teens or early 20s is:

      1. i ask her her age
      2. i say, “oh you’re still a baby” with a tone of disappointment, concern, but also teasing.
      3. the subtext is that her youth is a bad thing, that i don’t want a girl so young.
      4. then i actually address it and say: “i’ve dated young girls, but usually they are too immature for me. have you traveled, do you know what you want out of life?” etc.
      5. if she starts explaining herself to me, that is good.

      roissy gave this exact advice. to the girl, he says:

      “Normally I like to date older women because they are classy and sophisticated, but maybe you are different.”

      • Thanks Rivsdiary. Sounds good.

        But if she asks my age, I’d better not tell her.
        My experience is that women underestimate my age, and I get IOI’s (or more) from women many years younger than I am, but if they find out my age (the all-important Number), they ‘freak out’ and ‘run away’, because we’ve all been brainwashed to assume everyone of any particular age range has the same traits —
        ‘Oh, then he MUST be X, Y, Z’ etc.
        It’s stupid bullshit, and ageism can be like racism, but it’s very widespread and quite acceptable (to most people), so I need to dodge it.

        That’s just one of the reasons why online dating doesn’t work well enough for me to be worth the time it takes. Either she preemptively screens you out by age range, or you have to be a liar just to get a minimal chance with her (younger hottie), and I don’t like starting out on the basis of a lie, with the chance of exposure and condemnation etc.

        Any comments people?

      • lazy guy, read this:

        from d&p:

        When I tell guys to lie about their age, they all say the same thing, “What if she finds out the truth?” Are you a bunch of fags? Who cares? Oh my god. Are you going to meet your soul mate? Is she going to break up with you after finding out the truth? Will you have to snuggle you pillow to deal with the heart ache and pain? Besides, if you fuck a chick right, she won’t care about the earlier lies. Just run this escape tactic:

        -I have something to tell you.
        -What is it, babe?
        -I don’t know if I should tell you, as it would ruin everything.
        -[Thinking you have weeping AIDS sores and a felony rap sheet for child molestation] It’s OK, babe. It doesn’t matter. Just tell me.

        She’ll tell you that all is forgiven. The escape also allows you to share an intimate moment. What you guys don’t understand about women is hurting you. Women don’t have a firm understanding of truth and falsity. Truth is eternal. Women only understand how they feel in the present moment. When you confess your lies, she will feel great! “It took a lot of courage to come clean. I feel that we’ve grown closer as a couple. It’s important for you to know that you can tell me anything.” Lie about your age. And spare me any bullshit about morality. I can assure you that she’s halved her total number of sexual partners. Seduction is deception.

    • If you are really worried about the age thing (and morality issues don’t over duly trouble you, or at least until after you have had your cock in her) then you can deal with it using some NLP techniques borrowed from sales.

      In general you can try to anticipate potential objections and pre-empt them.

      An example with the age question…

      You: Now I do have some worries about you. I’m worried about your age! I would prefer it if you were closer to my age. Then again (insert a reason) you do look around 25.
      Girl: No way. I’m 19 (or whatever she says)
      You: Ok. Well I hope you are a…..(neg, frame etc) ….19 year old? etc

      She is unlikely to ask you your age now because you have anchored her to the age of 25. She will likely guess 25-28 and the potential objection is dealt with before it arises. Note that you haven’t lied.

      You can use techniques based on reframing using anchoring heuristics in a lot of situation like this.

  7. My thinking–and I’d love to hear other guy’s comments on this–is that indirect game is an advanced technique, and guys new to pickup should practice direct game first.

    My reasoning: even with indirect game, you still have to physically escalate quickly and do a lot of ballsy things when the time is right. It’s much easier to gain those skills by practicing direct game. Once you’ve mastered them, then you can do indirect game effectively knowing those escalation skills will be there when you need to bust them out, and having the confidence of knowing you can be bold when necessary.

    I think I held myself back for too many years by trying to go indirect. The problem is whenever it came time to make a move, I’d hesitate. Now I focus on escalating early and delivering bold statements of my intent. I’m getting laid more, and getting a lot more practice being bold. Maybe in a year or two I’ll be ready to go back to indirect and do stuff like Mystery Method well.

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  9. Direct daygame should be your default mode as it’s more efficient, filters harder and is honest with your desires as a man. For moving girls during the day it works better, and on hotter girls. I always tell my students to begin with this, as it puts hairs on your chest and slays the “nice guy.”

    Indirect daygame is an option for situations where it wouldn’t be socially intelligent to go direct: on a long flight, around a small college, in a small town. If a student has chronic approach anxiety or social phobia then I’d encourage it as it’s great for conversational practice. My first 20 lays were from indirect game, so it does work, but it doesn’t help build alpha traits.

    There’s a third path, which in my opinion is the nirvana of all opening, and what “naturals” largely use. It’s also the hardest to learn or teach. “Indirect-direct” is where the opener is something situational and cheeky, but the underlying vibe is very direct (based on sub-communication). This under-the-radar approach is excellent for the workplace, gyms, shops, public transport etc where the social pressure is higher than on the street.

    • Johnny Caustic & Tom – thanks for this commentary which I’ve dutifully added to my compendium of notes. I should have known something was wrong when I read Roosh and was so relieved by his ‘elder talk’ recommendation because it was an easier/less painful/doable path. It was a clue that I wouldn’t have to put too too much out there. I would argue that it’s pretty obvious when a man stops a woman to talk and then asks for her number what’s up. Still, I really appreciated Johnny Caustic remark “I think I held myself back for too many years by trying to go indirect. The problem is whenever it came time to make a move, I’d hesitate” – thanks for that insight and maybe saving me a lot of time as I’m quite sure I’d fall into the same trap.

      I recall hearing Brad P talk on some David D. program and someone asked him some question about what the most commonly shared trait was of men he’s seen who are successful with women. So that stopped him dead & he had a deer in the headlights look -and set him to thinking so he looked down and thought for a moment without saying anything and then he looked up and said “balls”

      • “I think I held myself back for too many years by trying to go indirect. The problem is whenever it came time to make a move, I’d hesitate. Now I focus on escalating early and delivering bold statements of my intent. I’m getting laid more, and getting a lot more practice being bold.” -Johnny Caustic

        yes, this quote is excellent. so insightful.

        the most powerful combination is that masculine intent and boldness — ie. BALLS — combined with that human emotional connection and vulnerability.

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  11. Marco Rubio should’ve used that game tip during his gaffe involving a sip of water.

  12. Definitely some good ideas, especially for more advanced guys. The pickup phenomenon has moved more into a genuine, solid, “natural” phase. Comfort and emotional connection is playing a much bigger role than it used to, and it’s paying off big time. Justin Wayne’s method of quick romantic escalation is right on par with this. Tom and Jon Matrix are great examples of the power of this more connection-focused game.

    • Connection is generally created by touching. It’s so important that it’s perhaps the biggest detriment to the game if you don’t use it and will mean working extra hard to build a verbal connection to compensate for it.

      A lot of people say not to touch in the beginning of the conversation, but it’s been proven that touching someone shows a degree of authority and dominance, which directly aids in the seduction process.

      This makes sense when you add the fact that 80% of our communication is done non-verbally.

  13. yeah Yad over at has a video on beach game or some such for stationary women. He likes to address the elephant in the room by saying something to the effect of “Yeah I know it’s unusual just coming up and talking to you – if it makes you uncomfortable I’ll go away” or some such. Very disarming, very clever, very open and up front

  14. @RIvsdiary, thanks again. Good stuff. Funny.
    Yup, I’ve got no guilt about the “morality” of lying about my age, because it’s just a way to get past her stupid (or mentally lazy) rigid presumption that she knows all about me just from one number (ageism, so much like racisim: ‘Every person with Fact Q will also have traits X, Y, & Z’).
    I’m not encouraging her to hope we have a long future together.
    Her ageism is her mental problem which just creates an irrelevant barrier to us having some very good time together NOW.
    I just don’t like giving her ammo for moralistically condemning me like I’m garbage.
    The material you provided is good ‘food for thought’. Could be very helpful. Thanks.

  15. @lazy guy

    you’re welcome.

    when i first started pickup a few years ago, i listened to krasuer’s advice on telling the truth about my age, based on the idea that i should be proud of my life, and not hide anything. i loved that overall advice, and i agree, but the results in the field weren’t as good. a couple of times, i would meet a really cute girl in her early 20s, we would hit if off, and then when i confidently told her the truth, that i was 36 (now i am 38), her face would drop, and i would lose her. clearly i was doing something wrong, because krauser would tell the truth too and get positive results.

    then, i read d&p’s post, the one i quoted, and i loved *his* logic even better — basically, that girls don’t make sense, it’s all about feeling, why am i trying to be so logical?

    lying about my age has helped me a lot. if it comes up, if a girl asks me my age, i tell her to guess, thankfully they usually guess early 30s — i eat well, don’t smoke, and use night cream and facial moisturizer — and i say, yes, i am 32 or whatever.

    so that’s my experience. i wonder what nick and tom would say about this elephant in the room.

  16. this is what krauser wrote several years ago, he actually wrote this on my old blog. i was saying how i lied on my profile, and it was bumming me out.

    his advice:

    Not sure about online, but in person ALWAYS go the honest route. The singel greatest inner game leap I had was when I decide I would never lie. If there’s something about my life that makes me want to lie about it, that thing has to change. It is SO EASY to have a dominant frame when you are proud of how you live your life. When you know you can’t be “exposed” because there’s nothing you’re ashamed of.

    I tell them my age – I’m not ashamed of it. Being evasive hurts the vibe cos the girl is looking for you to adopt the “horny old guy pretending to be young” role so she can dismiss you. Don’t give her that out. Pretty much every time I’m asked, it goes like this:

    Her: How old are you?
    Me: Too old for you
    Her: No, really….
    Me: I’ll tell you, but guess first
    Her: [guess]
    Me: No. Older.
    Her: [guess]
    Me: This is gonna take forever isn’t it. I’m [real age]

    Once you’ve had a couple of teenagers in your bed, your brain comes to believe it’s normal for that to happen with such an age difference. And then in future sets you start to tell your real age and they believe it’s normal too.

    like i said before, i love the thinking behind this strategy, but for some reason it wasn’t working for me. maybe i wasn’t being sexual enough, wasn’t creating enough sexual tension..

    nick, would you still give the same advice about telling the truth about your age?

    • Riv, this is interesting. Because “Indirect” Game itself is basically lying.

      If you zoom out as a whole, Indirect and Mystery Method – the initial incarnation of Game is basically a long lie about what is going on.

      There’s been talk about Tyler here, he of course came up in the scene using Indirect MM game.

      Tyler once told a story about how he got a girl into bed in 6 hours the whole time pretending to be gay. Even while he was once insider her, fucking her, she said “I thought you were gay,” and he said while he was fucking “Oh my god, You converted me.”

      Indirect-direct is not really lying because you are still subcommunicating the intent.

      “Never telling a lie” is a true INTJ (Krauser) position, in that it comes very easily to the INTJ.
      Other personality types, not as much of an issue.

      An ESTP, for example (Roissy/Heartiste is certainly this) is much more comfortable lying, and also better at it, personality wise. The ESTP’s and ESFP’s are the prototypical “players.” Not to say they would not go for “authenticity” in game – but the act of “lying” does less harm to their self-image.

      With that said, there could be something to the idea of simply NOT lie about anything. ‘If you have to lie about it as a man, that thing in your life you need to lie about it. something is wrong with it…’

      I’m not sure how you navigate social life without telling white lies – I’m assuming we are talking about significant lies about who you are as a man, and what you want

  17. @LWM

    “If you zoom out as a whole, Indirect and Mystery Method – the initial incarnation of Game is basically a long lie about what is going on.”

    on this point, i disagree — even though i hadn’t heard that tyler story before, and it’s hilarious. i think we can both agree that that is an outlier.

    when i stay away from the mystery method too long, i start believing the reverse hype that it is crap, that it is all lies and smoke and mirrors. sort of like what you said. i have even said it myself. that it is not based on actually increasing a man’s value. it is more focused on framing, teasing, entertaining, artificially raising my own value in her eyes, while i artificially lower her value in her eyes, then do some pre-programmed comfort stories, then escalate properly — and bam! i am in her pants, all thanks to smoke and mirrors and stacking forward.

    but then, i go back to the actual material — the book itself, and also the excellent, excellent TV show, and i remember, wait a second, this man is actually teaching things of value, he is actually making these men into better men.

    the mystery method is NOT one long lie about what is going on. the mystery method brings out the best in a man — his confidence, his smile, his way of seducing a man. the mystery method teaches a man how to dance the game of seduction, and that is not a lie. if the mystery method is a lie, then high heels and makeup are also a lie — and they are not. it’s all just seduction, fantasy, putting your best foot forward, maximizing your masculinity and femininity.

    anyone who things that the mystery method is a lie needs to see season 2 of his show the pickup artist. it is brilliant. it is one of the most entertaining, satisfying seasons of any show i have ever seen, and yes that includes the wire and the sopranos.

    season 2 shows the best of the mystery method: taking real dorks who actually DO have value as men who are good at something — computer programming, engineering, whatever — but who are just petrified of girls, have no idea how to talk to a girl, charm a girl, kiss a girl, or seduce her. it’s like the classic story of the ugly duckling — the value is there, but it’s just hidden. a diamond in the rough. in season two, there were a couple of guys who were tall, good looking white dudes, they were just TOTAL DORKS. mystery shaped them up, and they became pussy slayers.

    see what i’m saying? for a man, learning how to talk to a woman and seduce her, that *is* adding value and creating value, value that wasn’t there before. that is not a lie at all, no way.

    and indirect game is not a lie either. the subtext is always the subtext. a man talks to a woman. boy meets girl. it’s the oldest story there is. we all know what’s going on.

    • Riv, no one is saying MM doesnt have some genius or Mystery did not help guys – but

      Indirect certainly more of a lie. You are doing a lot of hiding. You eat up enormous amounts of time essentially putting on an act of disinterest.

      The very first step in MM is to “neg the target.” So, you are supposed to treat most poorly the girl who most interests you. You are lying from the very opening.

      Then you do the “who brought her here, how do you roll with her.” Then you have to put on the act that she is “Winning you over” quote un quote. There is the physical pushing her away. Then more theatrics follow in A3 with the phony qualification questions.

      None of this occurs in Indirect-Direct.

      You balls out STOP her in the middle of a street. You are clearly interested, albeit you will tease. More or less, up front, you ask her things right away, like Torero “Do you like British guys.” You are ON THE LINE like the “Man’s Man” Krauser wrote of here:

      Instead of pushing her away in an act, you are pulling her in going for a kiss right on the street – within 3 minutes in some cases.

      Indirect MM: this is essentially WOMAN’S MAN game.

      The method, writ large, is tailor made for a woman’s sensibilities. You are trying to make her figure you out. You are complex. MM, writ large, can be seen as a HUGE QUALIFICATION to tailor fit yourself into what a woman wants.

      But is a man a woman? No, a man is a man.

      There is much less “acting,” if any, in I-D:

      “I’m a man, I like you, although you’re a look a little goofy…. Hey, I want to get a beer. Why don’t you join me…. (at the pub drop some DHV) Hey, I want to fuck. Lets go back to my place”

  18. Pingback: I will defend the Mystery Method till the day I die | rivsdiary

  19. @LWM

    great reply. now here’s my reply:

    1. “Indirect certainly more of a lie. You are doing a lot of hiding. You eat up enormous amounts of time essentially putting on an act of disinterest.”

    – yes, i will give you that point about having to expend a lot more time and energy. that is the nature of night bar/club game, or large group game. since pretty girls are rarely alone at night, you can’t just laser in on one person and talk to her exclusively, you will look like a freak. you gotta win over the group first, befriend everybody, make everyone feel that you are a cool, interesting guy, and *then* seek to isolate the girl you actually like (the target). yeah, that is a ton of work, yes i would say that is the main advantage of I-D over MM. because pretty girls *are* alone during the day, doing errands, shopping. so although i wouldn’t call it “hiding” — i would call it “taking my time” — you are right, it’s a strategy much more suited for extroverts, high energy men, men who like attention and an audience, and men who are tall.

    2. “The very first step in MM is to ‘neg the target.’ So, you are supposed to treat most poorly the girl who most interests you. You are lying from the very opening.”

    – that is not lying! that is the nature of women, through and through. treat a girl too nicely, and she will see you as weak. that is the nature of women, from age 15 till the day they die. women scan for weakness in a man, a woman is never truly “on your side”, she is always shit testing. like rollo says, men love idealistically, women love pragmatically. people get hung up on negging, negging is just teasing, negging is just push pulling, negging is *fun*, girls love it, girls *want* to find a man who stands up to them and tells them how he really feels. that is *not* lying. find something about her that you don’t really like, mention it with a smirk, watch her face light up. my favorite is, look her up and down and say, “i like your outfit, i’m just not crazy about your earrings.” boom! girls LOVE that stuff. a girl doesn’t want a man to kiss her ass, we both know this.

    3. “Then you do the ‘who brought her here, how do you roll with her.’ Then you have to put on the act that she is ‘Winning you over’ quote un quote. There is the physical pushing her away. Then more theatrics follow in A3 with the phony qualification questions.”

    -no, those are *not* “phony qualification questions”, watch the tom torero saturday sarge part 2 video, which is brilliant (, and he says exactly the same thing: “wait for something she says that you don’t agree with”, and then challenge her on it. flip the script. make her start investing, make her start talking and asking you questions and start trying to win you over. that is NOT theatrics, that is called flirting and seduction.

    or maybe it is theatrics. if game is seduction, and seduction is a dance, and dance is theater, then yes, the mystery method is beautiful theater. a beautiful theater of love and sex.

  20. The one case this would not work is the one I had today. Girl I’m banging and I have been having some issues. Called her out on some nonsense by text. We met up for dinner and she was being bitchy and bratty.

    Rather than saying “ohhhh., we’re doing this now?”

    Or “If you’re in a bad mood, let’s do this another time…”

    I just ignored her bitchiness and at one point just grabbed her and went for the make out.

  21. I recall reading once that if you don’t like a woman’s mood, don’t try to address it logically or on the level she’s at. The only way to deal with it is to change her emotions or introduce a new emotion. This is perfect example

  22. Regarding “Elephant in the Room” I wanna share one thing that I heard from David D back in the day which has served me well. When you meet a girl for a date and you notice she’s a little nervous, smile and say “Are you nervous ?” they will usually smile and say ‘a little’. Then put your hand lightly on their arm, look in their eye, smile and say “Don’t be nervous”. This also helps to get some kino early in an across the table initial interaction, which cross table interaction I shall henceforth avoid after reading some of this blog. I’ve since been on the lookout for actual bars at wine bars where you can sit next to each other.

  23. Totally off topic : Krauser you should do more in-field video analysis( I assume you just dont have access to more of them?). Would you analyze just an audio of an approach or phonecall? Hard to video yourself, ya know.

  24. Tom, I have a question which will probably be more of an advanced level issue as I have no problems attracting girls in the initial stages and closing. But at the moment, it’s very hit and miss and inconsistent. I’m usually good at ironing out issues but was wondering if you could give your input on this.

    I have a sticking point at the moment in that the minute I escalate and show my intentions, they lose interest due to suddenly becoming less of a challenge. I’ve tried building more comfort and doing some healthy doses of push/pull but it’s something i’ve found i’ve had to do consistently in order to keep the game active.

    I basically have 2 options. On one hand, I can hold off on the escalation and lose her interest completely due to delaying things too much, or I can do what I’m doing and have her lose attraction that way.

    Would love to hear your thoughts.

  25. Pingback: Daygame Mission: Day 3 – My First Experience Of The Russian Minute – Milin's Adventure

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