The latest scandal-of-the-week is that famous daygame instructor Tom Torero was caught out having hired an actress to appear in a “kiss close” video recorded outside Selfridges on Oxford Street in summer 2012. I can’t stay out of it because: (I) the hater who found out about the actress set up fake forum accounts as “krauserpua” in order to blame the scandal on me (ii) Tom is the main co-creator of the London Daygame Model that I use and teach (iii) Tom is a personal friend of mine. So, here’s my response. First the facts:
- Yes, Tom did fake that infield as he has admitted on his website here.
- No, I didn’t know he had faked it until he admitted it to me in a private message shortly before posting his public admission.
It’s incredibly difficult to get accurate information about the sexual market place. Both men and women lie about everything be it notch counts, intentions, quality and so on. It’s also incredibly difficult to get accurate information about the seduction process because it’s a necessarily private affair which you can’t simply film. Girls won’t react naturally if they know a camera is on, they won’t want you to record them due to fears over their reputation, and there are additional legal issues if you’re recording in a situation that has the “assumption of privacy”. Nothing new here, but it creates a huge transparency problem which is ruthlessly exploited by the charlatans and fakes in the PUA industry who will either lie, evade or use smoke’n’mirrors to convey a credibility to their customers that they don’t deserve.
As players / wannabe players, you are fully aware how difficult it is to decide who you can trust. Which teacher? Which system? What is a reasonably expectation of success?
That’s why there’s such a big reaction to Tom’s infield revelation. For several years he had distinguished himself as someone who could be trusted by virtue of his copious library of infield recordings on the street, on dates, and even in the bedroom. People could watch the videos, conclude “Tom is legit” and this tough issue was resolved. The realisation that one of these videos is fake suddenly upsets the apple cart. People are asking themselves “so is he just another charlatan?”
I predict there will be two types of reaction to this news based upon whether the recipient has met Tom personally and seen him in action, or hasn’t.
People Who Don’t Know Tom – Earnest students of Game will quite reasonably conclude he’s a fraud, that this video expose is damning evidence, and that he can thus be thrown in the dustbin alongside Mehow, Vince Kelvin, David DeAngelo and others who have been either caught faking or otherwise never proved their bona fides. I can’t say I blame them. It’s important to be skeptical of people’s claims and to demand evidence. It’s reasonable to give special weight to those incidents which suggest dishonesty. In addition to genuine students of the Game, the PUAhater crowd will also seize on this as further evidence that Game Doesn’t Work. Tom was an average-looking man banging hot girls (something which can’t happen according to the Looks-Money-Status crowd) so the fact he faked one video will immediately lead them to include every single one of his successes was faked. There’s not much to say about that. PUAhater’s are mentally ill. Let them wallow in their own misery.
People Who Do Know Tom – What’s interesting to me is that over the years Tom has taught hundreds of students, and hundreds more have used the day game model he created with me (and others). Literally hundreds of people have seen Tom live in-set with their own eyes in unfakeable interactions. Hundreds have been live in-set themselves implementing advice they got from Tom and then seeing the effect it has on the girls. These people have enough direct evidence of their own eyes that (i) Tom’s daygame skills are for real and (ii) the London Daygame Model works, that the fact Tom got caught red-handed faking one infield doesn’t really matter. Yes, it was a bad thing to do. But no, it doesn’t shake their confidence in the model or Tom’s abilities as a coach.
What’s my opinion?
Tom shouldn’t have done this because it was dishonest. However, it’s small potatoes. I remember watching the video back in 2012 and thinking “pretty weak set, no big deal” and never thinking of it again. It’ll all blow over and we’ll all continue hitting the streets, banging hot girls, and tweaking the model. I’m certainly not going to distance myself from Tom to “protect my reputation”. He’s my friend and I’ve seen with my own eyes that his daygame skills are for real.
Tom is an elite-level daygamer, possibly more skilled than I am. You’re well within your rights to cut him off your “guy to listen to” list after this video expose but if you do so you’ll be missing out.
December 12, 2014 at 4:40 pm
Completely agree. Well said.
January 13, 2017 at 4:18 pm
I’ll fogive Tom if he releases his Street Hustle book on Amazon Kindle or any other ebook format in LULU.com
December 12, 2014 at 5:04 pm
Not much more to say really, let PUAHate have their day in the sun until another one of their broken men goes on a rampage. I’ve never seen him in set but I trust you as you’ve seen him in hundreds and his advice works.
December 12, 2014 at 5:08 pm
I’m convinced that Tom Torero is legit, although that video was fake. Why?
Because I’ve used some of Tom’s game advice and it’s worked well for me! If you’re worried about legitimacy that’s how you should judge someone’s game advice – test it! I wonder why Tom faked that video because, Jesus, I’ve never gotten laid from cold approach and yet even I’ve had a street make-out. THE CAVEAT is that each time the girl was LESS ATTRACTIVE than me. Krauser, you’ve already talked about how that works; i.e., it’s not true “game.” Anyway, my point is that such things (street makeouts with a stranger) ARE possible, though.
Based on my 1,000+ approaches, bunch of instant dates, and getting a few girls into my place from the street (though zero lays), I’m convinced that Tom Torero does in fact get laid from cold approach. His advice, like yours, rings true once you’re actually out approaching girls. Unless you’re a guy who’s had at least one near-miss experience from cold approach I can see why you’d think all PUAs are full of shit. Most guys won’t approach enough to get there…will they?
That’s why most dudes quit.
By the way, K. , I got a toy sized asian girl shirtless on my bed a couple days ago from cold approach! I got too nervous to pull the trigger though (she was nervous too)…so I took her number like a little pussy…she’s responding to texts so we’ll see…I think I missed the window though…sucks. It keeps getting closer and closer to that moment though. It’s only a matter of time (hopefully)! [You’re getting there. I’m sure you can feel like an artillery spotter watching the shells land progressively closer to the target as you zero in. K.]
December 12, 2014 at 5:16 pm
Just read Tom’s rationale.
Totally makes sense.
December 16, 2014 at 4:44 pm
Can you post a link to his reponse? [I did. K.]
December 16, 2014 at 9:51 pm
Might have been taken down because I don’t see it on the website, blog, or youtube channel. [I checked. He’s removed it. K.]
December 12, 2014 at 5:39 pm
She: Something along the lines of “Too soon”
He: [pulls back] Yeah, I feel so easy, but you make me so horny. It’s hard for me to control myself. It’s easy for you to do that, you being a girl.
She: Not so easy for me. You make me hot, too.
He: [goes back to kissing her, massages her pussy, reaches in briefly, then pulls out] No, too soon. I just love your little moans and how your eyes glaze when you look at me.
She: Don’t stop.
He: Make it easier for me to reach.
She: [pulls off her panties.]
December 13, 2014 at 1:03 am
Dam dude 1000+ approaches and not a single lay? You’d think just from sheer numbers game you’d stumble upon a yes girl who happens to just like your look or is really in the mood for a man. Did you read both of Krausers books? I’d imagine if you haven’t, reading them will fill in a lot of holes to your current approach method. K lays out exactly what you need to be thinking and doing every step of the way, so long as you have a bunch of failed approaches previous to reading so you have context to understand the material from. [It all depends where you start from and what you’re shooting for. Daygame is like fencing – it takes longer to get results than swinging a big hammer but once you’re ready, you get better results than the hammer swinger. K.]
December 16, 2014 at 5:52 am
duuude you should have totally closed that! The other day I had a hot jp girl in a school/sailor outfit while we re-enacted internetporn (credit to ‘balls deep’ for the inspiration and ebay for supplying the merch).
RE: TT, personally I don’t mind if people think he/game is a fraud, let’s keep daygame 2.0 amongst the 1% 😀
August 14, 2016 at 1:02 pm
Hey man that sounds super cool, how did you meet that girl and how did you set up the little role play? And what’s that “internetporn” thing?
December 12, 2014 at 5:10 pm
Tom is the man.
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December 12, 2014 at 5:31 pm
Decades ago, early 70s, I must have dropped over ten panties from cold approaches. Was on the floor of a woman’s apartment “getting friendly” within 30 mins of a cold approach doing Day Game. It came from a swimming pool approach when we were alone in a clubhouse pool in the afternoon. I was engaged at the time and the woman had seen me with my fiancée.
Daygame makeouts are quite believable. Tom’s action qualifies as a white lie, like any “historical” fiction.
December 12, 2014 at 5:43 pm
He has done the right thing by owning up and apologising for his dishonesty.
What do you make of this Nick, seems to be a burgeoning movement of “I used to be into PUA/ game but now I’m totally against it”
http://notpickup.com/still-doing-daygame-its-time-to-move-on-and-evolve-buddy/ [Just a faker doing the “Aaron Sleazy gambit”. Watch his video – it’s obvious he’s hopeless with women and just trying a different angle for money/readers. K.]
December 12, 2014 at 8:34 pm
That guys a complete loser I agree with Krauser you can tell just by looking at a guy if he’s banging hot girls or not if you no what to look for theres a twinkle in someone’s eyes a higher than average awareness about them that normal dregs don’t have.
December 14, 2014 at 5:28 pm
I might lack an air of “smugness”. When “banging hot girls” becomes just a normal daily occurrence, you just accept it as what happens, part of your life. I’ve kind of moved on from the “look at how many hot girls I’ve slept with” phase of my life now. Also do consider that I’m usually dealing with a devastating hangover during the filming of most of my videos 😉
Don’t want to sound like I’m trying to defend myself or anything. I fully expected to get “haters” once I decided to raise my profile. All part of the fun.
Anyway keep rocking! Have fun.
December 13, 2014 at 11:40 am
First of all, to be fair he copied the article from another website (source is in the end) but it’s still ironic:
Writes article saying that people that go out to daygame are weird
Still does daygame – but only when buying socks
December 14, 2014 at 5:31 pm
The site the article is copied from is another one of my sites. I don’t “do daygame”. [That’s fine. I think your approach is wrong, but you’re welcome to put your opinions out there and build a business. K.]
December 14, 2014 at 5:22 pm
Not a faker. Not hopeless with women (far from it). But I can kinda see why you might think that at first glance. I’m new to making videos, though not amazing at talking to a camera just yet. I’ll get there. I’ve nothing to prove, I know the stuff I teach is real, and I get a lot of respect for it. This is “post-PUA” stuff. Or rather, the stuff guys need to get to grips with BEFORE they go out and try to attract women. Thanks for checking out my stuff Nick. Always enjoyed your blog. Best. [Good luck. K.]
December 12, 2014 at 5:47 pm
More here btw I believe Tom when he says his other Video’s are not fake.
December 12, 2014 at 5:49 pm
Tom looks and talks like a faggot, so if he can get girls, anyone can. That said, it’s important to point out that he denied it until the evidence was incontrovertible:
http://daygame.com/cafe/index.php/topic,6196.0.html [Not true. He didn’t make a public statement at all until his admission. You’re welcome to comment, but keep it civil. K.]
December 12, 2014 at 5:50 pm
And another dude John Cooper.
http://www.reddit.com/r/seduction/comments/2c8g4o/i_am_john_cooper_teacher_of_seduction_without/ [Another attempt at the Aaron Sleazy gambit. Again, click the video. He’s obviously a clown. K.]
December 12, 2014 at 8:39 pm
What the fuck is this gimp on about! “I moved the energy up into my mind” LMAO
December 13, 2014 at 3:32 pm
Heh – His entire Game looks very much like Pickup to me. He takes PUA concepts, re-words them and changes them to his personality. The Giving instead of Taking mindset is actually beneficial – I too want to give a girl a good time, give her my dick and generally have great experiences together. But the way to achieve that is to use a huge amount of individual skill that takes time to hone and train.
Will Beck recently had a nice video on the subject: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=AI2EknhjyK4&list=UUQ69s6pIPwV5tioRAGrG0Tw It seems that a lot of pro PUAs try to distance themselves from the RSD PUA debacle. In effect what most do is they change the names of the same Game concepts, but still teach the same art.
Also what Will Beck does is that he often shows infields of approaching girls as a good-looking guy using his internalized Game level. Most men would not be able to replicate that so easily. Running Good-Looking-Game on an 8 or 9 in her prime with options is no easy feat even as a GLG – as some friends of mine realized just recently.
December 13, 2014 at 1:09 am
Just a philosophical paradox of note; if you unconditionally “give” like he says don’t you at least “get” to feel to feel good about yourself doing that?
Not a criticism per se, just a bit perplexed…
Would like to understand more.. [You can’t understand empty-headed pseudo-intellectual sophistry. He’s talking out of his arse. K.]
February 11, 2015 at 9:41 pm
Not if what he means he is activating his mind chakra and thus combines the power of both sides of the brain simulatenously inorder to make contact with the reptilian mind, the same thing a cat does when it arches its back and gets ready to fight even the biggest of enemies. Its more than a state change its more like primodial power. This is the reason some people like Einsten were genius, its because they could tap into this kind of power and in truth genius is only a state of mind and a geniius is not smart all the time. It is his ability to swifty access this state which makes a lasting change within himself.
December 13, 2014 at 1:16 am
K, off topic but how come you never started up an email list? The usual path of a blog is build up a reader base and email list, release products. Send emails to people on your list about the products. You skipped the whole email list part. Was there a specific reason? [The blog was never about making money, that’s a new thing for 2014. Also, I find email lists icky. I don’t want run my business like a typical PUA clown. K.]
December 17, 2014 at 4:34 am
Do you talk anywhere on your blog about quitting work and the thought process you underwent to make that decision? I remember when you first got into game 5 years ago you worked as a high end financial analyst. Then one day it appeared you just sort of quit and were involved in game or travel pretty much full time. [Yes. Do a search around early 2010. K.]
December 13, 2014 at 3:17 am
I want to add some perspective. I don’t agree with the actress hiring. But he’s owned up to it and that’s for him to comment on. But on the other hand I can honestly say I’ve followed Tom’s model bought one of his products and followed his advice and it’s been HUGELY successful. You can’t define someone by a single video or act. You have to look at the totality of the body of work and the intention. I don’t think the intention was to “mislead” but to illustrate. Big difference.
Secondly, I want to add one more point. ThePUA/Game haters want desperately for this to be a sham, for game to be “luck” for this to be something other than the manifestation of male/female polarity because it’s hard to change one’s own mindset when one has been firmly pigeon-holed into the matrix. It’s easy to be a Blue Pill, AFC, beta male and fit in and take what you are given when it’s your turn. The “right one” is out there…blah blah blah. Fuck that.
This past year was pivotal for me and I combed through Tom’s video’s and Krauser’s blog following themt and then internalizing and adapting the learnings to my own situation. I recommend Daygame Mastery to EVERY GUY who wants to understand game, themselves and women.
The context may be “Daygame” but in my situation, it’s helped me understand how to approach, escalate and close in EVERY situation.
So the debate continues…but for those of us in the know, it’s not a debate at all. Tom may need to rebuild some trust but based on his abilities and personality and authenticity it won’t be that tough.
December 13, 2014 at 2:04 pm
“You can’t define someone by a single video or act. You have to look at the totality of the body of work and the intention. I don’t think the intention was to “mislead” but to illustrate. Big difference.”
You have hit the nail on the head here.
He will bounce back from this, but it will take a bit of time for the drama queens to quieten down. Handbags.
On a seperate topic – Nick, will you be publishing Mastery or Primal Seduction in paperback or Kindle anytime soon? They are on my reading list but are too big (and I suspect heavy?) for my travels. Cheers. [No plans yet. Primal will be in PDF soon. K.]
December 13, 2014 at 3:41 am
I had a residential with Tom. I’m exposed to a fair amount of smart people and that guy is brilliant at his chosen field of concentration. I’m quite sure the various women he met that week when I was with him in malls, bars, and on the street, and got laid with, making me feel like a little kid listening to his masterful ladies man older brother’s conquests all week from my little room there on the side of our rented suite…. were not pre-arranged actresses haha.
December 13, 2014 at 3:57 am
Good stuff on supporting Tom.
The haters were quiet as mice when Tom quit from his old employer, and spoke of Daygame realities. DG being No walk in the park as almost every MPUA (even his old employer) sold/continue to sell it as. Those that sell DG as a magic pil, are the real Charlatans.
T’s content is tried, tested and approved by so many of us. Almost all the current MPUAs are tall and/or good looking dudes, which as brought up by K, leverage their looks vs actual game. I’d rather take advice from dudes from a similar SMVbackground.
-Sidenote: Of a handful of DG girls i got this year (finished my first year), they have been tourist girls and no locals (Is this another general theme with London Model DG dudes of regular SMV in the West- i.e. not tall/goodlooking/ or from money ? Or it’s just a continuum of the beginner phase.) Thoughts, anyone? I’m sure i’m not the only one…
December 17, 2014 at 8:21 pm
I am 6 months into DG… 1/2 my dates are local girls, 1/2 are students from Asian countries. Just number closed a “traveling sales girl,” (Ha… for some reason that’s funny to me) from another state, also counts as non-local.
I think the “non-local” element has more to do with needing high volume traffic than your SMV. City centers have high volume, but also lots of out of town traffic (both tourists and students), thus you end up w/ more non-local closes. Not related to SMV, or very little, IMHO.
December 13, 2014 at 4:02 am
IMO Tom has earned a lot of good will — and ‘the benefit of the doubt’ — by having repeatedly given away lots of helpful info in his video chats which he posted online for free viewing.
I have bought two of his books. They are high quality and their authenticity appears to be quite credible.
I read his mea culpa on his blog and it’s convincing. This embarrassing incident looks like a distinctly inconsequential matter to ‘students’ like me.
As for those who respond to Tom’s little scandal with virulent negativity, well, there will always be a percentage of the population who merit one’s shrugging indifference.
December 13, 2014 at 3:28 pm
One more thought on this:
We all make mistakes, but we way distinguish ourselves and redeem ourselves by responding well once the mistake is recognized.
I believe Tom’s public response to his mistake is excellent, and it counts as one of the reasons to dismiss this one mistake as being irrelevant to the value Tom has delivered and will continue to offer.
Also, I feel that Nick Krauser’s public response to this matter does him great credit; reinforcing his reputation for integrity and credibility.
PS: Nick, I just finished reading your new book this week and I got great value out of it. I posted a review on Lulu,
and I look forward to reading Daygame Mastery and Primal Seduction (as soon as Lulu offers a discount again!).
Now I need to find out how the latest edition of your Nitro book differs from the earlier version which I bought last year.
I hope you will publish further volumes of your memoirs! [Thanks boss. And yeah, I don’t ditch my friends. K.]
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December 13, 2014 at 2:29 pm
let’s be rational tom is legit and i do believe in the guy there’s no power in the world that can make me change my mind why cuz i did follow his advice and it did work simply as that 1+1=2 that what i know
December 13, 2014 at 5:40 pm
A little concerned to tell you the truth..because the girl in this video by Steve Jabba..who happens to look directly at the camera:
Looks strikingly similar to the girl in this video of Tom’s @2:10-13:
Just looks like she colored her hair. [This shows your lack of social acuity. One of them is a Colombian and obvious Spanish native speaker while the other is an FSU catwalk model who was also with Tom on his Saturday Sarge talk. Really, this is the calibre of thought from Game Denialists. They literally can’t even tell two women apart who have nothing in common except long hair. K.]
Which isn’t concerning because I think Tom lacks game..but it leaves me wondering how many videos are doctored..which is annoying…because I’m sure Tom has game.
December 14, 2014 at 12:58 am
@southerncircuits; Are you hallucinating? Serious question..
December 15, 2014 at 3:09 pm
That girl at 0:29 looks like she would be really, really good at sex.
December 14, 2014 at 12:13 am
I had a bootcamp with Tom: the man is absolutely legit and what he teaches works. Money and time well spent.
And my personal message to the PUAHATE zombies: go and crawl back to the sewers.
December 14, 2014 at 12:36 am
I did a bootcamp with Tom, I was lucky and it was pretty much 1 on 1 and he definitely has skills that nobody else I know has, even the ones that are very good with girls. I remember telling him to chat up some girl on the tube on the way to Westfield, and he did it without hesitation and she enjoyed it, he wasn’t showing off to me, just trying to educate me and change my perspective on what I could do with my life, and tube journeys.
It’s a tough one as he was selling a lie to some people with that video, and maybe people paid him money because of it and that’s wrong but my personal perspective is that I don’t really want to kiss girls in the street, and that was never my intention so I don;’t feel cheated at all but can understand why some people might.
As a parting shot I would say that the last product I saw of Tom’s, Badass Buddha, he seemed to get very cocky towards the end of it when he was describing how to pull girls and I thought it let it down a bit, and if this episode helps to ground him a bit then that can only be a good thing.
December 14, 2014 at 2:11 am
This begs the question, how many of the ‘kiss closes’ (hate these expressions) which ‘inspired’ Tom, were faked?
Most of them, one assumes
December 14, 2014 at 7:45 am
Man, that’s some bullshit. The real bad part of it is he would do of kept it a secret if he didn’t get caught. He even lied to Andy and wouldn’t tell him until he got caught. I know people make mistakes, but this certainly does tarnish his honesty in my mind. He wouldn’t even tell his closest friends until he gets caught, what makes anyone think he’ll tell you anything else that he might of done?
I personally feel he is legit, but he can’t really make up for that, especially considering what lengths he goes to to hide it from people.
December 14, 2014 at 7:49 am
Yeah, Tom was kind of satisfying the public demand,and making it easier for himself to get it done quickly, but street kiss-closes are a circus trick anyway. He has a lot of material out, especially uniterrupted hour-long audios of complete seduction, that would be hard to fake. And pay for:)) And his mindsets and methods work, no doubt, I use very similar and friends ask me if I put something in a girl’s drink or what’s going on. Handsome dudes say I have “no competition” during nightgame, which is obviously BS but it’s nice to hear anyway with my average looks. And this is thanks to teachings outlined by Jabba, Torero and Krauser.
December 14, 2014 at 9:19 am
i’ve never read any of tom’s stuff and only know of him through krauser. can someone suggest some materials or blog posts which would be a good introduction to his “mindsets and methods”
by the way, i just thought, the whole “krauserpua imposter” thing could just be a giant reverse psychology marketing ploy to direct more traffic to his site (such as me, now) and increase sales.
i’m not saying i believe that but, it’s certainly not out of the realm of possibility [Even if I was willing to betray a friend to Sluthate, there’s the fact that nobody likes a traitor, not even the side they defect to. K.]
December 14, 2014 at 11:46 am
His youtube channel.
December 14, 2014 at 10:45 am
[Redacted. Email me if you want an explanation. K.]. I took a bootcamp with Sam and Dave in the summer and am surprised they haven’t defended Tom. Thanks for all the books, R.
December 15, 2014 at 12:07 am
The pressures of commercial PUAism,….
December 15, 2014 at 1:41 am
I am reading Balls Deep and found this “I was becoming The Guy Girls Cheat With after a lifetime as the other guy.”
Oh, but then “It takes time to accept the new reality.”” Page 165.
It is taking me an enourmous new mindset to develope this.
All with good fun.
cheers again and happy holidays.
December 15, 2014 at 2:29 am
Wow. I think the big problem of putting out a fake video is if someone studies it and immerses themselves in learning from that specific video, they will actually be ruining their game.
There is another guru who I heavily studied and later learned to be a complete charlatan. His lay reports and edited videos were completely forged (I think you might know who I’m referring to, he fooled everyone and at one point was on your top daygamers list). His lies are to a degree far, far worse than Tom, and he drained me of tremendous time, money, and emotion.
Regarding Tom, I believe he fucked up and may have lost credibility with many people out there, but I personally will be continuing to learn from him. His advice has improved my game a lot and combined with your assurance of his teachings and ability, I will give him another chance.
Thanks for addressing this issue. [Justin Wayne, I’m guessing. K.]
December 15, 2014 at 3:01 pm
Jason, call out who you’re going to call out, just how K. identified who you may be talking about. As he says I could only imagine it would be Justin Wayne based upon the fact that there was some controversy in 2012 I believe.
What makes you think Justin Wayne’s videos are fraudulent? Krauser, you did recommend him to me. Still, K., I remember a few months after you made a comment on a video about how you also should not pay so much attention to lay reports with a load of swirly twirly moves in them/surmounting crazy odds because going from street to sex is usually as normal as can be. Justin definitely does milk those “wow” stories in some of his earlier lay report podcasts/stories.
Still, I have used some of Justin’s lessons with positive results. In my approaches using Justin’s advice I have seen things play out the exact way he says they will/how they do in some of his videos. For example, his advice about testers works. I think that tip alone made a difference with my stop rates.
I have noticed though that you don’t have to do Justin Wayne”s “Domino Effect” to get laid. I’m convinced the way Krauser suggests works too ( because I’ve tried both). Actually, I’m beginning to wonder if instant dates are a waste of time unless you can instant date the girl to a place where you will be fully isolated and can fuck (your house/apartment/car).
One thing that still amazes me about Justin’s videos though is the kiss thing and my assumption is that’s what you’re referring to with “learning from that specific video..they will actually be ruining their game.” I have attempted the kiss before parting many times. Twice (or was it three times) the girl has kissed and been willing to meet up again. Every other time I got a playful kiss rejection. Some girls even gave me encouragement! One girl said, “Haha, no but that was a GOOD try” with a beaming smile. None of those girls ever returned my messages. So I wonder if going for the kiss after a daytime approach is just bad form. But his proof seems legitimate though (how many PUAs show dick in vagina) and he claims that many women who wouldn’t kiss at first will still meet up. Based on reactions I’ve seen there’s just a gut feeling in me that his stuff works.
Someone correct me if I’m wrong or have seen strong evidence the other way.
I’m obviously biased, btw, because I like Justin and have used his content. In the same way I’m biased towards Krauser and towards Tom Torero. Take that for what you will. [Justin was caught out scamming with a fake MTV reality show and those girls were the basis of all his impressive (but heavily-edited) public infield pulls. So, I assume all his 2012-era infields are fake. However, I do think he has legit skills. He trends towards scammer type marketing, such as using various sock-puppets on forums and blog comments to rave about him, and he’s on Thundercat’s list which is always a bad sign. However, take the rough with the smooth. I’m sure he’s pretty good at daygame, he just oversells himself. K.]
December 16, 2014 at 7:39 pm
Oh, wow. Okay, gotcha.
December 22, 2014 at 5:04 pm
I’ve practiced the londoner daygame model for two years. Justin Wayne’s tips and knowledge have given me insight like never before and like no one before (including all the daygame.com coaches, krausers nitro book and other great puas). I personally think the guy understands game and especially the problems when learning it like no one else. His advice (not even personal advice, but only products) has brought me to a knew level of game. Sorry if that didn’t work out for you Jason but I trully believe Jutin Wayne is a master like no one else.
@Krauser daygame.com does scammer type marketing at the same level like justin, have them both on email list…. Something else, do you think a girl would bang you just because you told her, in the middle of the street, that she will be on a mtv show? Not a rethorical question, wanted to have your honest opinion if that type of stuff can be pulled of. If yes, to what degree is it helpfull? I guess its a highly philosophical question. [I don’t market like daygame.com and regarding the second question, read the full story on Aaron Sleazy’s blog. It’s the one time in his life that Aaron got something right. But yes, I think Justin Wayne has real skills, he just has some flaws too. K.]
December 25, 2014 at 3:55 pm
The only problem I see with the london daygame model is the lack of kino and touching. The interactions are to cold hearted, its hard to create a memorable conversation without touching. I think what justin wayne did is to embedd kino and kissing in a way that not only prevents flakiness but strengthens the whole interaction. I dont mean the fast make outs which almost guarantee a flake afterwards.
So if you take the daygame model and add some kino, hugging, kissing in a romantic way, which doesn’t convey you only want sex, you might end up having a stronger connection with the girl then you would without. Given the success you guys have (tom torrero, you mr. krauser and other london daygamers), if you would add those aspects to your game, I think the results that justin wayne claims to achieve wouldn’t be that unrealistic to you either.
Yes his videos of 2012 are super impressive, but not every girl was of the highest caliber which you would assume if you would sell some chicks a dream of beeing a tv star. Some of them were super hot, some were not my type at all.
Like I said, I watched his products and his knowledge of some aspects of the game blew me away, all that after consuming theory and practicing it for two years like a junkie (I thought I heard it all). I think his knowledge would benefit many upcoming daygamers and also probably many daygame gurus as well, only if you guys unite the powers and try new things.
Thank you for reading mr. Krauser. Love your stories and insights. Keep it up! [It’s a total myth that there’s no kino in the LDM. You must be referring to the old Yad/Yosha blueprint stuff from 2011. Wait till you see Overkill and I’ll show you how kino and sexual energy works in the LDM. In November I fucked 4 new girls in 6 days using this new style, all girls twenty years younger than me. That’s the power of it, it trounces the current NYC style. As a note for future commentors…. I know exactly what you’re up to because Justin is constantly sending sock puppets to big him up on other people’s blogs and forums. Since I warned you all, your strategy has changed to become less confrontational but I’m no mug. Big him up elsewhere. I’ve wish him success with his business and I wish his followers success with girls, but I’m tired of his underhand self-promotion so any future comments bigging him up will go into the spam folder even if you spend 50% of it flattering me first. Seriously, stop being so underhand. We’re not gullible noobs here. K.]
December 27, 2014 at 7:16 pm
hey man, no need beeing angry. Nobody sent me, I’m just a regular dude who follows many different pua’s. Justin raged about you on his recent video, that’s how I know. I just felt like I have to step up for someone, who’s knowledge I think benefited me. Would do the same for you. It’s just sad to see great puas hating on each other… Like I said its no strategy or anything, there is no conspiracy going on, at least I’m not a part of any, just felt like I had to say something. Been a reader of your blog for more then a year know and will continue to be, what I say is what I mean. Wish you all the best!!! [Sure. K.]
December 15, 2014 at 5:50 am
well, i’m now familiar with sluthate … nothing more to say
December 15, 2014 at 11:14 am
December 15, 2014 at 12:53 pm
The funny thing is, the people who outed Tom are the very same people who post pictures of themselves on their FB with models who they’ve clearly paid for and convincing others that they got with Game.
Its very easy to listen to third-party sources for advice and pass it all off as credible without actually meeting and getting to them in person. I can hold my hand up to this as well. But I would say, for anyone who wants to know the real facts, Meet the man in person and find out for yourself how he’s like. I’m usually very selective with the people I associate with and can say that Tom is a good guy with nothing but value to give.
It would be a shame to pass him off as a scam as he has helped me tremendously in my daygame. [There’s a very clear split now on this video, like I wrote. I don’t find anyone excusing his actions but all the actual daygamers are backing him up on the wider credibility issue whereas it’s the voyeurs, haters, commercial rivals and nightgamers who think he’s finished. K.]
December 15, 2014 at 7:12 pm
[Sorry, had to redact your comment. Picking a fight with this guy isn’t my battle. I think this comment is better suited to a forum. K.]
December 15, 2014 at 5:58 pm
Maybe I´m missing something, but I don´t see the fuss, If the guy has to stage a few videos in order to make a professional and efficient publicity reel, what´s the problem?
December 15, 2014 at 8:36 pm
I totally agree, it should become the norm. Filming and showing videos of women without their consent is a bit underhand. And not to mention the legal difficulties that may arise, should these people find out.
December 15, 2014 at 8:51 pm
(And Maybe add a disclaimer though).
December 15, 2014 at 7:04 pm
Toms alright. I’ve had a few email conversations with him which I never expected and he has always been open and genuine. He’s been daft to try and make a name for himself in this way – the truth always outs.. That is a fact from my own experience. He made a mistake and he has held his hands up. We’ve all got secrets and we all tell lies.
It’s just a shame that one of the few genuine pick up coaches has now been tainted and many men will miss out on such premium advice. His video with Nick Krauser on Youtube concerning Male Sexual Market Value is, for my money, one of the greatest game pieces of information ever produced. And it’s free. I hope it all works out for him. Chin up. Tom.
On a side note, I’ve just tried to give Red Pill information to a blue pill friend of mine and it has completely blew up in my face. Lads – just don’t bother, it’s not worth the grief.
Looking forward to your new product, Krauser.
December 15, 2014 at 8:14 pm
Hi Krauser. I am interested in buying you £60 book but given I not flushed, its a bit much. Do you ever see the price of this book coming down? [No. K.]
December 16, 2014 at 8:57 pm
i liked tom somewhat, but none of this really touches on the motivation. what is the motivation to do this? Obviously, to add legitimacy to his reputation. And why? To sell more product. Greedy. It is ultimately a dishonest thing to do, and i personally think less of him now. Thats all well and good that you have witnessed his skill firsthand, but to the layman, who gives a shit about third party testimony? You get caught faking in such a precarious environment, your’e toast. How could anybody take anything at face value at that point? Without lingering doubts? [Then don’t buy his products and stop whining here. K.]
December 17, 2014 at 3:04 am
you should realize this comes from someone who has digested loads of your blog and daygame.com. truthfully, im neutral. its juts like…fucking hell…i dont want to think this happens. I dont care about his skill, it doesnt affect my opinion of it. BUt its just lame! you concede as much. [Yeah. But it’ a storm in a teacup. His three main high-profile critics are just playing politics and have barely a scrap of integrity between them. K.]
December 16, 2014 at 10:42 pm
I’ve seen Tom infield he’s the real deal.
December 17, 2014 at 10:46 am
Knew there would be a freeloader pop up somewhere on the thread lol. Get yer 60 notes out son and stop being tight otherwise stop trying to get a reduced rate book. Christ…
December 17, 2014 at 12:22 pm
Anyone complaining about 60 pounds as too steep a price should calculate how much idiotic dates like cinema, dinner, no-kiss-close etc. cost him. Even going out to a club can cost you 60 pounds easily on one evening. Investing 100 pounds in good study material that can help with your Game helps you save hundreds if not thousands of pounds.
December 17, 2014 at 5:31 pm
I have tried to avoid giving my opinion on this on forums etc., but I think this is a matter which seems to have been brushed under the carpet rather too swiftly with my liking, especially as Tom has removed his message from his site and I doubt he will bring this up again in the public domain. Krauser, please excuse the long post.
A few points to be made; firstly, I am not a game denialist, quite the contrary, and while I have never paid for a bootcamp with Tom nor met him, I have bought a couple of products and have no doubt whatsoever of his high daygame skills. I do not think, as some people as suggested on here, that I cannot have an honest opinion without having met the man; if he is happy to charge me for products without meeting him, then I am entitled to have an opinion regardless.
There recently seems to be a growing trend in the PUA online sphere where instructors/daygamers are reaching an almost celebrity/cult like following from their fans and followers; none more so than Mr. Tom Torero. I have read some reaction to this episode on FB and forums and have seen lots of replies along the lines of ‘Don’t worry Tom! Everyone makes mistakes! You are still a great daygamer!’ While the latter is true, he is a great daygamer, a mistake this was not. A mistake is when you forget to turn the oven off. A mistake is when you incorrectly enter data into a spreadsheet. But here is what a mistake is not. A ‘mistake’ is not the planning, executing and denying of a calculated episode of what is, let’s face it, fraud. The whole thing wouldn’t have been so bad if it was just posted on youtube as another infield, but this video was used as part of and to promote a product which a consumer is paying for. This is where there is a problem lies, and why, for me, I have lost a massive amount of respect for the man. If this had happened in a large commercial industry, the portrayal of something as real when it is fake, there would be hell to pay. Tom is lucky that not many people will find about about this and I’m sure he plans to keep it that way.
Back to my point about Tom’s followers. I have no doubt from the way Tom’s followers act on public forums and social media that they would become buddhist monks if Tom said it would improve their game. People are not looking at this episode from an unbiased view, when the whole reputation and survival of the community depends on them doing so. It is my opinion that Tom really needs to, for the sake of his career and the community as a whole, step out of the shadows and provide a real, honest explanation, as he is not doing himself any favours at the moment. This is not about being a good daygamer or not, this is about having your principles and sticking to them, and lines are getting too uncomfortably blurred for my liking. [Fair enough. I actually agree about the whole guru-acolyte thing and actively discourage it on this blog. Too many vulnerable men are looking for a saviour. The only way to get good with women is to take personal responsibility for your results. The most laughable recent example of this was when Roosh posted a joke picture of being in a Polish prison and half his forum got a touch of the vapours. They were, with hilarious irony, missing the whole point of self reliance that he promotes. K.]
December 17, 2014 at 9:23 pm
“I have no doubt from the way Tom’s followers act on public forums and social media that they would become buddhist monks if Tom said it would improve their game.”
I reject this idea. As a student of one of his many bootcamps, I can assure you that you are mistaken. I and the other guys who Tom trained were very much down to earth and grounded, we were also expecting Tom to deliver down to earth teaching and were not in any way “slaves of the master” in any possible understanding. Tom did deliver down to earth teaching and nothing more – which is a lot more than most pickup trainers can do. No guru attitude or the like, no dazzling tricks at all. Just real world practice, with clear warnings about the pittfalls and limits.
I am in my mid 40ies and my experience has shown that everybody I know has made mistakes (yes, this is what Tom did: a mistake – not more), without exceptions. But few had the ability to openly aknowledge their own personal failures. Tom has. In my eyes he therefore belongs to the very few who deserve a special effort on my part (I usually do not comment on blogs I read, I am too lazy to bother).
You might not have met Tom in meatspace, but the impression he left from his videos – including the fake one – is entirely correct.
December 17, 2014 at 10:40 pm
Wake, I think you have entirely missed my point and yet prove it in the same circumstance. However, I hope we can keep this constructive as I believe this topic has the potential to become rather dangerous.
Here you are, defending a man who happily took money off you for a service; granted, you were more than happy with the outcome and perhaps you’d even repeat such a transaction. But only a fool, and I’m not attacking you personally here, would think that such a man is now your friend or someone you could rely upon. A prostitute will ride your cock, finish up, give you a kiss on the cheek and a smile, after which turning around and grimly shuffling her money into the night. You must, to quote the French economist Frederic Bastiat, look for what is seen and that which isn’t seen. As a 40+ man, you should know, as I’m sure you do, to be extremely sceptical about anyone you are paying a service for. However also, for a man of that age, you would have to be, and I don’t mean to attack you personally here, either blind or deluded to think that what Tom did was anything other than calculated fakery and manipulation, not a mistake. If he says it was a mistake, as he did, you can bet your bottom dollar that his followers will gobble that up and regurgitate it…. as they did, and as you are doing so here.
Furthermore, you say he has acknowledged it… where? The fact that he deleted his statement depressed me even more greatly; he is trying to brush this under the carpet as soon as possible, with as little new people learning about this episode; these do not represent the values of a man I would hold in high regard.
But how does this relate to pickup and why does it have dangerous potential? This is a dark time for pickup for a number of reasons; firstly, the RSD scandal. While I won’t give my full views of the company and the Julien Blanc case I will say that I personally was ashamed, watching it from an outsiders perspective, to be associated with pickup at that moment in time. RSD have a huge cult like following, with thousands of desperate young men willing to swallow up whatever product they are selling at whatever cost. This is an extremely dangerous combination; desperate men, money and (relatively) false marketing fuelled promises. Look no further than the Elliott Rodger case if you don’t believe me.
I would hate to think I sound like I have a chip on my shoulder, of which I don’t; daygame has taken me to places I could have never have dreamed of. But I also look around me and see guys not addicted to daygame itself, but to daygame material and daygame ‘celebrities’. It saddens me to say that a massive amount of the community has realised this and looks to defraud these guys in anyway they can. While I do not necessarily mean Mr.TT here, who is one of which I consider within the ‘holy trinity’ of my daygame reading material, along with Krauser and Jabba, I do mean a massive amount of other guys and it makes me cringe. I think Krauser and Jabba have realised this and try to distance themselves somewhat from the guys they provide products for, and rightfully so in my book; don’t shit where you eat.
Daygame started for me with a few books which ended up turning into a complete lifestyle change, leading to experiences I wouldn’t trade for the world. But as I look closer, I see a community that I’ve begun to see as rather ugly, and one which I’d rather not be associated with. [Daygame is like boxing, BJJ or anything else that’s arduous but eventually rewarding – about 10% get lifestyle-transforming joy, 20% get so-so returns, 50% go nowhere, and 20% crash’n’burn then blame everyone else for their problems. K.]
December 17, 2014 at 10:23 pm
In my experience those mindless guru followers are usually men who either don’t have much success with women or they just switch from their previous allegiance of the Blue Pill to a new Red Pill awareness that they fasten onto. I certainly like certain Red PIll and Game teachers, but I have plenty of points I disagree with them on – usually regarding their other viewpoints on life, economics or women.
Part of the Red Pill to me is the ability to agree with a person on one point, but disagree vehemently on different points. That disagreement does not lower my appreciation of that person. Before the politically correct dictatorship this was actually the norm! Neighbors did have different opinions – now the SJWs are forcing us all to believe in the same crap. I have friends who are black (and married to a white Russian girl) and others who are vehemently against mixed-race relationships – I like them both, because their viewpoints usually don’t have a bearing upon their day-to-day life or our interactions. And both of them are Red Pill.
But nowadays guys tend to either idolize one person completely swallowing every crap or discard everything as soon as that person does something stupid or says something he does not agree with. If you agree with someone on 100% of points, then you are either not a very deep thinker or you are a total brainwashed follower.
December 18, 2014 at 11:23 pm
I think guru worship is just a phase the same as the whole mystery method wearing furry hats & using routines. It’s just a phase beginners must go through I’m sure everyone’s been there but it sort of disgusts them now to think about. Guys come into this very fragile most of them having some sort of trauma in childhood I suspect others with limiting beliefs, some got brutally dumped by their long term girlfriend I don’t really think it’s a bad thing at first as long as guys eventually start thinking for themselves after gaining the necessary reference experiences. The problem is knowing which guys to listen to at the beginning, I’m sure many guys have been fucked up from listening to complete idiots in this industry.
December 19, 2014 at 3:55 pm
Being “beyond game”…for me this means stripping away, and reacting in the present moment, keeping the ideal tension…of course this is still game, but it’s now 100% you and doesn’t require you to “run” anything. Basically what Nick and Steve describe in Primal Seduction. It certainly feels you’re beyond game because you don’t do anything special anymore, don’t focus on “the model” or “the stop” etc. When you aren’t needy not because of the length of the text message, but because you simply aren’t needy even when you write shitty messages, or when you naturally do push pull via sms because there’s a lot going on in your life that’s kind of being “beyond game”.
December 22, 2014 at 12:21 pm
Sooo… it seems Tom’s statement about the camera guy not knowing about the scam was a lie… again…
And it really seems that Andy didn’t knew anything about it. Apparently Tom built his own scam inner circle. Does the real krauser know anything about it? [How did you get a recording that was recorded by Andy on his laptop, and only he had access to? What is your relationship to Andy and are you acting on his instructions? Why is everything you do 100% in alignment with attacking Andy’s business rival while protecting his company? What is your real name? K.]
December 22, 2014 at 8:54 pm
Google search about “vimeo 114200922” shows activity on a Manchester lair forum. The stats on “vimeo.com/114200922” shows most access (169 “Plays”) on the vid happened already on 11.12.2014. It seems some people have an obsession about Tom, not a healthy one. [There’s a whole seedy underworld of pick-up weirdos. I try to stay away from them and actively discourage them from reading my blog or buying my products. K.]
December 22, 2014 at 5:58 pm
This does not surprise me AT ALL! Get real guys, no way guys like Yad, Tom Torero or Andy Yosha are banging hot sexually active girls in their early 20’s. Much respect for Krauser but please, wake up and smell the coffee! There’s a video with Yad showing all his back hair before he goes on a beach I believe. You think some hottie would fuck him? NO GAME will do the trick if you look like shit! [You’re welcome to remain in denial elsewhere but not on this blog. K.]
December 22, 2014 at 6:42 pm
Seriously though. I respect you Krauser……A LOT! But come on, Yad and Tom Torero pull kinds of hotties in their 20’s. If you showed that video of Yad with his man boobs, gut and all his back hair girls would burst out laughing. [I don’t believe Yad gets hotties, but I’ve personally witnessed Tom do it over a dozen times. K.]
December 22, 2014 at 8:55 pm
I certainly do NOT believe Yad does. Game can only take you so far. If look sloppy you can’t expect game to overcome this. I live in a college town in the US and no Yad would bang any of these hotties. I trust you and your word is good if what you about Tom is true but…..why did he have to hire an actress? Shouldn’t he have been good enough to actually just do a kiss close? [This has been played out. Go on a forum if you want to flog this dead horse. K.]
December 23, 2014 at 9:46 am
The only certainty is not_krauser is not krauser.
December 25, 2014 at 7:54 pm
This is very shocking about Tom. I always thought he was good? No idea why he would even have to fake this? I remember seeing the video before and like you, didn’t think it was an impressive set or anything. Weird thing is that it actually looks like a real set. I’m a little disappointed in Tom. I’d like to think all his other stuff was legit but kinda in the grey area now. Makes me think other daygame.com could be fake. How could Andy not know about it being fake? Who filmed it the video?
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February 11, 2015 at 9:52 pm
I have watched Tom’s Baddas Bhuddah, he knows his stuff to an elite level but I think Krauser’s stuff is more advanced, but I do get a feeling that with Tom he doesn’t reveal some of the more sexual and F close stuff, which Krauser does, can’t wait to watch the Daygame overkill. Would like him to break down some bedroom stuff however, like the 51 minute LMR video by Deepak wayne on Youtube.
May 9, 2016 at 1:36 am
If he didn’t NEED to do it, he wouldn’t. End of story. If you are dishonest in personal level, that’s one thing (which I don’t approve) but if you are being dishonest to make money, that’s called something else.
August 20, 2016 at 12:18 pm
You attack “pua hate” and everyone now of accusing the videos out there of being ALL fake.
I’m pretty sure not ALL of them are fake, but you know how it is, only a tiny, small percentage of fake videos are going to be exposed as fake.
So, unluckily, it’s also very safe to assume many many more of the good, successful ones are fakes.
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