I was reading a blogpost yesterday from a guy deconstructing my 2013 daygame stats. He’s a Game dabbler but it’s a pretty interesting blog for a window onto modern London life around Covent Garden. Anyway, one of his contentions is that daygame has an extremely high cost-per-lay once you include the opportunity cost of not going to the office because you’re on the streets.
I immediately thought that was a weird wrong-headed comparison. Now, this guy was just musing and throwing ideas out there. I’d be surprised if it’s a position he’d actually wish to defend in serious debate, but it did get me thinking. His argument goes as follows:
Day Game is a whole other thing. If you do it systematically, it’s financially horrible. The hidden cost here is that Krauser’s spare time is not free: he’s an IT contractor in Financial Services and those guys make upwards of £400 a day. He could be earning six figures annually, but chooses not to. It’s a rare contractor who works all twelve months a year: let’s assume he could work six months a year. If I’ve followed his year right, he’s done a three month earning stint in 2013. In nine months he gets thirty lays, so in six he gets twenty. The extra ten notches are the benefit of his chosen lifestyle. The extra ten notches cost around £25,000 in lost post-tax income. That’s £2,500 a notch. Yikes! And those notches are almost all one-time: all those girls who are “on their last night in London”?
Summarised with this advice:
Good-quality escorts go out for £250+ an hour. That’s the benchmark. Pay more than that per lay and you need to re-examine your choices
The natural conclusion is that we should all bang whores. I’m pretty sure you know instinctively that’s wrong. Let’s explore why.
Within the statistics community they talk about how reading a stat only really tells you that somebody counted something somewhere. It’s a human process. Some phenomena lend themselves readily to interval data (e.g. height, weight) while others are more problematic. For example, what is the “biggest” video game in the world?
- Is it GTAV because it had the biggest launch?
- Is it Elite because it has the biggest gameworld?
- Is it Mario because it’s the franchise with greatest total sales?
- Is it League of Legends because it has the most simultaneous online players?
Before you start measuring something you have to decide what is important to measure. What are you actually trying to find out? Only then do you get into the next problem of how to measure it. To continue the video game example, let’s say by “biggest” what you really mean is “which game makes the most money?” So now you need to make judgements about what money is counted – is it physical copies sold? Is it “seats” per online distribution? Is it recurring monthly subscriptions and in-game purchases? How you count it determines if you end up with Call of Duty or World of Warcraft.
Note I’m not saying statistics are meaningless. I’m saying they aren’t simply “fact”. They tell you something, but you have to know how they were collected and they need to be interpreted. So let’s return to Game laying an additional piece of groundwork.
Per the scripture of Tomassi, there are two types of sex: transactional and validational. A girl fucks you either as a tool to extract something from you (money, fame, access to a lifestyle etc) or for the sheer joy of the act. At the extreme transactional end is prostitution, at the extreme validational end is burning love. Most men most of the time get sex that is weighted towards transactional, but are instinctively dissatisfied with it. Men want to be desired and loved for who they are, not as a means to an end.
And this gets us to why cost-per-lay is pretty meaningless. At worst, it’s a smoke screen for a monger to fudge his way into claiming to be equal to a player. Economists and accountants know all about “externalised costs”. That means excluding costs from a calculation so as to make the transaction appear more profitable. Say for example you spend about £100 every time you go clubbing and you get laid approximately once every four nights (which is pretty damn good work). That’s £400 per lay. But what costs have you externalised?
- Hangover the next day
- Hours in an unpleasant environment
- New clothes to wear at the club
- Missed opportunities to do something else that night
- Decreasing health
Those lays might cost you a lot more than £400. But then again, maybe you really enjoy nightclubs and have a blast every time you go. That £400 is buying you a ton of fun experiences in addition to the actual lay, so shouldn’t you be costing some of the money to a different activity (the cost of having fun on a Friday night) rather than the cost-per-lay? Perhaps you’ve also externalised some “income” too and that while clubbing you get such a good vibe that you make great male friends. Can’t you also apply that to the calculation?
Now let’s get into the quality of girl. In a cost-per-lay calculation there are two sides: the cost and the reward. There are all different accounting treatments to apply to the cost (as noted above) and the same concerns apply to the lay itself. Is an annoying fat slut as satisfying to bang as a virginal Russian catwalk model? McDonalds will always beat Byron Burger in a cost-per-burger but is that really the correct calculation? Remember the whole purpose of collecting a statistic: you aren’t really trying to measure the burgers, they are just a proxy in your attempt to capture a rather more nebulous concept – human satisfaction at an action.
This is one of the central insights in the Austrian theory of economics. Value is not contained within the “thing”. Value is a subjective calculation carried out in the mind of the consumer of the thing. Much the same applies to the valuation placed upon the costs – most of Game’s costs are in effort and emotion, not cash, and thus they are not amendable to simple interval measurement.
So let’s pull this together into comparing daygame with whoring. Here’s a crude rundown of the cost-per-lay
- £200-ish for an hour, one-time sex
- Girl is probably a physical 7, maybe 8
- She’s damaged goods in health, wear’n’tear, and mindset
- Transactional sex. She doesn’t give a damn about you. Probably has contempt for you.
- £10-ish for anywhere between one-time sex to multi-year MLTR
- Girl is probably a physical 7, maybe 8 (for me)
- She’s in the upper echelon of freshness and pleasantness
- Validational sex. She really fancies me and loves having sex with me.
It’s foolish to ignore the intangibles in daygame. To return to the initial quoted costing, I don’t want to work in an office. I do the minimum necessary to fund my lifestyle and even if I wasn’t doing daygame I wouldn’t go back into the office to maximise my income – I’d just read a book, or play a video game. My decision to not earn as much as possible is not an opportunity cost of daygame (as the earlier quote) because it was motivated by something different entirely. I happen to enjoy daygame. When I’m “on” I hit a flow state which simply can’t be bought. Flow must be earned whether by daygame, sparring, climbing a mountain, sledging with huskies or whatever else it is that lets you temporarily grasp its blissful absorption.
Once you have made the jump from primarily-transactional to primarily-validational sex you have completely changed the nature of the interaction, and with it your whole view of life. Banging whores rots your soul. You know they are rotten and you know you haven’t achieved a damn thing by poking your dick into their diseased orifices. Banging younger-hotter-tighter is uplifting. It makes the sun shine almost every day as you achieve something so special as to be akin to street magic.
Cost-per-lay and it’s bedfellow notch-count are infantile measures. It’s like comparing a golf score without including the handicap. Those stats do tell you something, especially if you make an effort to render constant all other variables, but when you hear them bandied around the internet you’re probably just witnessing a combination of ego-shrimping* and barrel-stepping* from internet blow-hards, or a series of meta-weasels so the writer can reconcile himself to not cold approaching.
* terms to be defined later, see if you can guess.
March 3, 2015 at 3:54 pm
I wonder how much it costs you to take shit, according to his calculations…
May 19, 2015 at 2:56 pm
paying for whores gets you laid which is the goal of most daygamers, but it doesn’t change who you are increase your confidence, charisma, dominance, self worth etc so a beta pussy with no charisma getting laid is just a beta pussy with no charisma getting laid
March 3, 2015 at 5:09 pm
Exactly. I suppose notch-count can be useful to young guys trying to gain experience and confidence, but at some point quality becomes the sole metric.
Speaking of retro clothing and Covent Garden, do you remember the old J Simons and Sam Walker shops? I used to pick up a lot of kit there.
March 3, 2015 at 5:33 pm
Your best phrase you used a few years ago was “estrogen slug”. just so true.
March 3, 2015 at 5:36 pm
ego-shrimping = making himself feel good, trying to compare himself to others, show superiority on a forum ?? just my guess. [Close. Shrimping is from the BJJ use of the word. K.]
March 3, 2015 at 5:51 pm
Nice blasting of Chicago school economics there. I don’t advocate Austrian economics and Libertarians 100% anymore – (I’m more along Zelcorpion’s thinking) but Austrians like Walter Block are absolutely right to trash Chicago School economics concept of Marginal Utility – utter Bullshit.
March 3, 2015 at 8:57 pm
What are you talking about?
Austrians don’t repudiates the concept of marginal utility. This very concept was first discovered by Carl Menger, among others.
Subjective value and marginal utility are not antitethics.
March 4, 2015 at 7:20 am
I Posted at work in a hurry yesterday. Imo Walter Block is right there are no measurements of Utils or units of satisfaction is what I meant to say.
March 4, 2015 at 7:26 am
Skip forward to approx the 19 min mark – Walter Block backs up what I said. “Cardinal Utility is a delusion” “Once you have Maginal Utility you have cardinal utility”
March 4, 2015 at 7:33 am
Apologies for non-economics readers out there but one meaning that I got from Nick’s article is the futility of trying to measure satisfaction from an activity or a good. Satisfaction is subjective and can’t be measured objectively. A branch of Economics called the Chicago school derives a lot its work from measuring utility or satisfaction from goods – wrongly so in my opinion.
March 3, 2015 at 6:56 pm
Interesting post about the importance of quality intangibles. That requires real analysis of blanket statements.
Banging younger-hotter-tighter is uplifting.
Let’s consider that even post-menopausal women can be attractive. Mrs. Gamer looks quite good horizontal. Sag goes away and she looks 30 years younger. Great skeletal facial structure and good skin without wrinkles (kudos to Mary Kay and Mrs. Gamer’s religious observance of her skin care). Lady Clairol hair color does a good job, too. She’s about 10 lbs overweight. HB10 at 25.
Another post-menopausal woman is also very attractive. Good skin & hair, but has crows-feet when she smiles (charming smile, though). Still, very trim with an hourglass figure and hair done up well. Looks good in yoga pants, miniskirts, and dresses. Moves like she’s 30 years younger. Good skeletal facial structure. Likely was an HB8 at 25. Doesn’t hurt that she has feral attraction to me. Maybe Hormone Replacement Therapy is involved?
Still, these are exceptions that prove the rule. Not that many women are HB8+ and few of those take care of themselves.
March 3, 2015 at 7:50 pm
Good post, K.
I don’t think anyone who’d advocate banging whores over the daygame climb has done much of either.
March 4, 2015 at 5:24 am
^ Right on there.This one gets it.
Talk about more money than sense. If you want the ultimate in economic efficiency, why not make a date with Rosie Palmer and her five sisters?
March 3, 2015 at 11:04 pm
“Value is not contained within the “thing”. Value is a subjective calculation carried out in the mind of the consumer of the thing. Much the same applies to the valuation placed upon the costs – most of Game’s costs are in effort and emotion, not cash, and thus they are not amendable to simple interval measurement.”
Thus using money to get value from another person is the least efficient means of exchange, because it has to be converted from what another person values in my action to give me money and then back again to what I value into a monetary value in the other. Game is superior in that it bypasses this whole process and exchanges raw emotional validation for raw emotional validation.
Monetary exchange is by definition objectifying. It allows for objective exchanges between two parties with limited knowledge of and interest in the other. The man is being objectified by the woman and the woman objectified by the man.
You focus mostly on statistics and framing, which is insightful and relevant but I think what’s more important to explore more deeply is his implicit collusion to be objectified as a provider object. It doesn’t occur to him that the prostitute doesn’t “like” him, or even that being able to be liked by an attractive woman of her own free will is even possible. If anything that is the social conditioning of supplication to women and low self-esteem (from who knows where) coming out, it simply doesn’t occur to him to want women who want him.
And in fact I’ll go one step further and say he hasn’t even admitted to himself that he has these validation needs of his own that he isn’t addressing because he’s convinced himself he’s happy being a provider object, which is another way of saying he’s consumed so much social conditioning that he should exist as a provider object that he now self perpetuates the mentality in himself, defending it against those who seek truth and understanding who would enlighten him.
To connect this to another of your posts, I checked out the guy in your beyond game post and he used the term “heart” to describe a motivation in himself. This type of vague and emotionally distorted reasoning is a large part of the meta-weasels as you describe. A random quote from the follow up post to this person’s calculation, his answer to approaching:
“House parties and other “time-out” situations ease the social control a bit, though who’s heart hasn’t sunk on hearing the phrase “I’m here with my friends”. ”
Often as I study these processes more I can detect a word or a phrase which itself points to a whole pattern of reasoning.
Thank you for this contribution.
March 4, 2015 at 4:59 am
This is pretty much on the button – I’d add that in addition to the actual sex/LTR and quality being better, one must also include the benefits of daygame, or indeed any difficult but ultimately rewarding skill, beyond the simple outcome of sex. Sex is an obvious quantifiable outcome but doesn’t say much as to what the person has gained beyond sex in a prostitution vs. daygame scenario. I’d be the first to call out a long term ‘daygamer’ who is never getting any concrete results but just ‘loving the game’ (ie. deluding themselves), but once tangible results start to come in there is far more beyond the binary outcome of sex/no sex that provides further fulfillment.
November 17, 2015 at 6:54 pm
Spend one day in divorce court and then tell me whether that woman who had ‘genuine’ feelings or contempt for you! She is in fact a prostitute in a guise. All women are prostitutes, the difference is in the vaguness of transaction. And it is debatae who has bigger contempt for you, hooker or your wife of 20 years whose been having an affair with your best buddy for the last 10 years – welcome to the real life folks, stop watching Disney channel.
March 4, 2015 at 11:07 am
Barrel-stepping: frantically hopping from one argument to another as each one goes under. In other words, constantly moving the goalposts. [Not bad try, but no. Think of crabs in a barrel. K.]
March 6, 2015 at 4:50 pm
Ah ok, so everyone dragging each other down? Don’t people already call that being like crabs in a bucket?
March 4, 2015 at 11:31 am
I will very much agree that people who champion whoring and try to discredit daygame/cold approach deserve a smack up the head myself included but only for not applying it. While I’ve been reading game blogs for quite sometime now. I haven’t actually had any success on the validational front in terms of sex mostly through lack of trying always letting AA overwhelm me and using that excuse. Most people would class me as a beta just by looking at my actions or lack of and you’d be right, I have sex with prostitutes because it’s easier.. plain and simple because as most men this generation who doesn’t like the path of least resistance. You get to skip to the chase and it does become purely transaction ,you earned your money but you didn’t “earn” the sex,
I don’t have that much experience in the field but I do have some being the weird person I have been to many clubs/music festivals because I like the music/atmosphere just too cowardly to talk to girls most of the time. The girls I’ve seen at the place I frequent are some of the hottest girls I’ve seen in person and are mostly nice. I’m into Asians mainly who happen to be international students or just on a working holiday.
I know it’s transactional. I know it’s a bit of an act but it doesn’t matter. I’m not ashamed of this at all but I feel I’d be in a worse spot emotionally/mentally if I hadn’t fucked so many prostitutes because I’m at the point already that recreational sex is kind of a novelty and not the BE-ALL and END-ALL of life and that I’m not missing out on all that. The following quote comes to mind “Nick, fucking birds isn’t all that. Once you’ve shot your bolt you’re still the same man you always were. Shagging birds doesn’t solve anything.”
Though essentially I’ve cheated my way to girls way above my SMV and instinctively you know it’s “wrong” especially having read/watched so much material about daygame and cold approach. I have no illusions about women but I’m fine with my choices even if it has slowed down my development in becoming a man. I do appreciate this blog, videos, books and overall content Krauser has put out there and I do hope that I will start applying it in due time…
At this point in my life sex with Korean, Japanese, Chinese, Thai and Singaporean prostitues has been hands down the best thing I’ve experienced. Fuck you I won’t be shamed as most of them have gave me “good service” and have been nice personally. I’ve spent close to $10,00 AUD on prostitutes and massages from August 2014 to now which is at least 25+ prostitutes over multiple times.
Men need to have sex it’s programmed into us especially once you’ve had a taste of the younger, hotter and tighter. For men there isn’t much better things in life because it’s just our biology until our sex drive diminishes and we are freed of this need. Smoke ’em if you got ’em by all means be it dropping $ or just spitting game
The crux of the matter is that THERE IS more important things in life than recreational sex with stunningly attractive, sweet feminine women.. believe it or not. I have only just now been updated on the fact. I’ve kind of bypassed the process even though it does hurt me as a man not being able to just go out to the street or wherever have a chat and take a girls number confidently enough that she will give you her real number and set up a date later. Or even just challenging and engaging her enough to tick that “sexworthy” box. I’m just now in the process of finding out what those important things are as over 7 months of transactional experience I can safely say I don’t want to let my need for sex control me anymore. I still love women never hated them for a second though I did dislike being rejected by all the girls I was attracted to in high school. As the wise Billy Joel once wrote “Blame it all on yourself ’cause she’s always a woman to me”.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=kI3MwwWYC3Q [I have no problem with whoring when people tell it like it is. My problem, as always, is people trying to pass one thing off as another in order to claim a status they don’t deserve. Good comment. K.]
March 4, 2015 at 6:25 pm
The point isn’t that there are other things than fucking hot women to spend your time on, greater purposes an the like. There are and there must be, that’s obvious when you step back and get a bit of perspective. The point is that after actually fucking hot women who feel validated by you and aren’t simply doing it for the money, you gain the ability to see that perspective. Until you do it you won’t know what those greater things in life actually are.
I’ve learned a large amount both about myself and about the world through each and every sexual relationship I’ve had, even if it was for one night.
I strongly suspect the hollowing out is more of a lack of transition to deeper MLTR’s or OLTR’s which would bring a different sort of fulfillment, perspective, and proper evaluation of a greater purpose. Also in Krauser’s biography, which I own and read, he talks about a sweet young girl who helps heal his issues with women from his past divorce, issues he might not have realized were even there until that relationship.
Does this greater purpose of yours involve children? Why or why not? How will know if that’s something you want if you don’t get to the point that you have a hot girl who will fuck you and only you for a long period of time while still allowing you to discretely hook up with whomever you please? Maybe you decide you don’t and simply want to live the player lifestyle forever, or if that is impractical you plan to retire at 45,50 or some other age and settle down. Regardless questions like am I going to have kids, and if so when and with whom will have a huge impact on how you pursue your purpose.
Also raw sexual validation from women in exchange for emotional validation peels back the veil on human interaction like very few other things. It’s an extremely high stakes relationship by it’s very nature and thus you get to experience a side of people that otherwise would be very difficult. This will inform you how you want to give your work and yourself over to other people in the pursuit of your purpose. If you still think women are magical unicorns then you will by proxy think that of all people and be too nice. Or if think women who have sex are dirty sluts you might be too aggressive with others, transferring that hate. You just won’t have an accurate view of people and thus how you fit into the greater whole until you fuck hot women who you have an authentic connection with.
March 4, 2015 at 12:28 pm
What the other poster is saying dosen’t apply to Krauser because he enjoys the daygame model and averse to to ‘paying for it’. But that don’t mean that other post is not on the money for some guys.
March 4, 2015 at 3:57 pm
Indeed, I would say that it apply for most guys. People good at picking hot girls are extremely rare, all the guys I personally know (including myself 😉 ) either do not score a lot (at the process takes a lot of effort and money – that’s me, score very little), or do score regularly because of quite low standard (either lowering their standard, or having low standards to begin with. Not me, i am cursed with very high standards 😦 ).
I know indirectly guys that indeed are (or were) PUA (the natural kind), regularly laying hot girls, sometimes without any effort. Imho roughly 1/100 to 1/1000 guys are like that. Not a lot, compared to the guys that lack great pick up talent, but have the money and low social conditioning and thus can enjoy whoring.
Also, anglo world, scandinavian countries and france are among the worst places (that I personaly know) you can find for mongering. Expensive, dangerous, not so hot to frankly ugly girls with shit attitude. If you want to monger and happen to live in one of those countries, go abroad, in a country where it is either legal or so common it is as good as legal, this is the best indicator of quality. Germany or Holland for example, or SE asia. BTW, this has a very positive effect on non-whores in those country, in my experience. The amount of bullshit they can afford is much less, cause the whores keep them in check….so win win situation, if you ask me.
I would be very interested in what a good PUA would say about whoring in a “good” place, a german FKK for example….Preferably going with someone who know the scene and can gives good advices. I suspect that the comparison with free lay from game would be less severe.
That being said, the validation rush of winning the price is indeed not there, and the stuff is highly addictive. Which in itself show that the experience is quite good, if it was so bad it would not be addictive at all. It’s like good industrial food: good taste even if not up to chef cuisine level , easy, and not the best for your health, not really because it is inherently bad, but because it’s so easy you eat too much 😉
Judging quality of experience is extremely difficult, I agree, for food, sex or anything….But imho the strongest effect is what I call the uphill effect, from ski: you can do offslope skiing either by climbing the mountain by yourself, or taking the lifts/helicopter. My friends who climb always says that the slope was great, perfect, incredible, better than anything you can have paying for the skilift….but they say that even if they went down exactly the same way as I who took the lift. Personally, i am a ski lift guy, mostly by lack of fitness, courage and ejoyment for climbing 😉
March 4, 2015 at 12:44 pm
I checked out the escort scene but its difficult to find a super hot girl doing that shit. Especially a British one. Most very hot women do not get into that scene because they can, and do get into an arrangement setup without the label of ‘prostitution’. That is also is a way easier life then servicing random men and all the problems that go with that.
Most of the women who are escorts in the UK are foreign. They don’t have the connections (yet) to arrange an alternative.
The only real real way to fuck a super hot girl is through the traditional social circle or cold approaching.
March 4, 2015 at 6:57 pm
The problem comes with comparing transactual sex and passionate sex out of desire for the man. Those two things may appear identical since similar activities are undertaken. But in truth it is similar to saying that both a Lamborghini Aventador and a Ford Pinto, because both are cars which serve it’s purpose after all. Even seducing and fucking the very same 22 year old hottie and paying her a lump sum for her services is different. She gives her body to you while her spark, her desire for you, her liveliness and joy are left at the door. There is literally a legion of men online who write horror-stories about getting reluctant duty-sex from their wives and then later finding the very same woman in passionate sex with another men – sometimes they even see old tapes of their wives enjoying sex 100 times more than ever with her husband. Do you think that man considers himself a winner here getting a low-class Fiat while others got a Ferrari?
The problem her is of course that this kind of equation cannot be calculated with money – you cannot really BUY love from someone and you cannot BUY true desire in a woman just as you cannot BUY male desire in a man. A wealthy overweight ugly entitled 50 year old billionaire can spend 2 billion on an attractive man, but she will not make it desire her much more.
March 4, 2015 at 7:06 pm
Master post. I submit to the AlphaSigmaness of Nick here.
I’m writing about being anti whore using, this comes in handy
March 4, 2015 at 9:36 pm
Ego – shrimping: Deftly avoiding putting your ego on the line
March 4, 2015 at 9:55 pm
I took a shit on Monday that cost me $100USD by my calculations while I waited in mediation with my ex-wife.
March 5, 2015 at 2:08 am
While i admire Krauser and agree that getting a hot girl to fuck you because she wants to is more exciting than just paying for it, i have to respond to the comments about prostitutes all being ugly used up diseased trash. I have been using escorts for a very long time and spent a LOT of money on them. I fucked hundreds of escorts over the years, and i can tell you that there are some stunners out there, as in legitimate 10s who could be lingerie models. Last month i had sex with a 19 year old moldovan who is probably hotter than any girl Krauser has fucked judging from the pics and videos of his lays he used to post a long time ago. I can provide a link to her profile if you dont believe me, although her beautiful face is blurred out. If you truly think all escorts are 7s or 8s you havent done your research. And by the way, London is an awful and overpriced place for punting. In other countries you can get way better service with hotter girls for less.
I guarantee you that spending a ton of cash on high quality escorts will result in you fucking more hot young girls than any “pua” no matter how skilled or good looking he is. And its also way more convenient and reliable. Excluding celebrities like Brad Pitt and such, what man has the ability to fuck a different hot young 8-9 every week? Who here can have a threesome with 2 smoking hot ukranians whenever he wants? What pua can go “hm today im in the mood for a read headed girl with big tits who can deepthroat and does anal, lemme just go out and get one.” All a punter has to do is pick up the phone, and in a couple hours his wishes will be fulfilled, for a hefty fee of course.
As for the quality of sex, it varies. I have had good and bad experiences, the most important thing is to do your research, read reviews etc. Most hot escorts are not very enthusiastic, but some are. Some are great if you treat them right. If you tell an escort that you are gonna tip her an additional 100-200 if she does a great job, she will usually work harder to please you than a “normal” girl. I have even been with a few escorts who genuinely enjoyed having sex with me believe it or not, its rare but it can happen if you know how to treat them. On average sex with escorts who i regularly see is better than sex with a regular girl, and no doubt leagues beyond what your average joe gets from his grumpy wife.
As for the comment “She’s damaged goods in health, wear’n’tear, and mindset” let me share an experiment i did 2 years ago. There was an escort who i was regularly seeing at the time who was very good at what she did, 22, intelligent, studied psychology and looked like a normal beautiful girl, you would never suspect her of being an escort. I booked her for a whole day and got her to seduce and have sex with a buddy of mine who was fairly successful with women, and was always talking about how awful it must be to have sex with whores like i did. It was amusing listening to him talk about how sweet this girl is, he thought shes relationship material after knowing her for 1 day. I am pretty sure that if Krauser approached that same girl on the street not knowing its a set up and she was actually being paid to let him fuck her, he wouldnt call her damaged goods or notice that she doesnt give damn about him.
Im not hating on people who prefer to do the hard work and get a girl who wants to fuck them because of their game or whatever, im just saying that for those of us who are incapable or unwilling to put in the work, focusing on making lots of money instead is a legitimate option.
March 5, 2015 at 9:13 am
Heh – yeah if you go into serious money and fuck hundreds of top-end Escorts after researching enough you will find some who actually enjoy fucking – have a very strong drive etc. Also they sometimes have clients that they enjoy fucking because of the chemistry. But I wager that this is more of an exception to the rule.
As far as some or most PUAs having had sex with escorts who were not on duty – you bet that pretty much everyone had some who did at least a little side-hoeing, had a sponsor etc. But you see – it is different to her too, because she had her Beta Bux und now went with the PUA for an Alpha Fux. A good measure to find out how much she really enjoyed the experience is to ask her whether she wants to stay at your place for the next day, but unpaid. And yes – women sometimes can make you believe in true and passionate love – many married men sing a similar song as their wives just played real passion, while she never was attracted to him in the first place. To her he was a set marriage certificate and security.
March 5, 2015 at 1:07 pm
I wouldnt advise anyone to start seeing escorts expecting to find a real connection, chemistry, real passion etc. It is a job to these girls, some are more convincing than others(i have seen some oscar worthy performances), but they are still there for the money.
That being said, i have met a few girls who really liked seeing me. One independent i was seeing regularly would just stay all day without getting paid, just watching movies, talking and shit. I fucked her a number of times without paying for it, and she had a thing for bjs so shed just randomly start doing it cause she found it funny. She was an independent escort though, agency girls usually cant stay after your time is up and tend to be more professional. I few girls tried to get me into a kind of sugar daddy relationship. Keep in mind that i banged some 300+ escorts and these are exceptions to the rule, most escorts will do their job and thats all. I wouldnt say they have contempt for you or that you disgust them(unless you are some fat dirty slob, i have heard some horror stories from girls), they will usually be indifferent. [I have no problem at all with whoring, when accepted for what it is without pretensions of it being something else. It’s more akin to shopping than hunting. K.]
March 6, 2015 at 10:04 am
Trust me – most feel disgust for the client. They are just good at hiding it. I owned an escort agency once and I talked with quite a few girls.
Sometimes they would meet an attractive one to them, but that was rare. The only other differences were those who actually enjoyed their job – usually because of a high sex drive and some kink – and the very young beginning ones who did not separate real sex from paid sex yet. All others found mostly a deep disgust with the entire process of having to pay to get laid.
Sugar-daddy relationships are different and some told me so. Sometimes they even fall in love with guys, but that also depends on a few factors.
But hey – to each his own. Dan Bilzerian is probably paying girls a bit for their travel and time.
March 6, 2015 at 12:17 am
I’ve been doing online game, some night game (getting too old, 38, to find going out regularly enjoyable – unless it’s already with a date to a bar) and lately working on overcoming approach anxiety for daygame, since that’s definitely the way forward for me if I want better quality girls than the 5s and 6s in their 30s I usually meet online (even here in South Eastern Europe, where I’ve been living the last two years, getting responses from women 8-10+ years younger on dating sites is very rare, although when it has happened and I’ve gotten them out on dates, they’ve been much easier to bed than the husband hunting 30somethings, most of whom I get nowhere with beyond some playful banter and minor physical escalation that may or may not get shot down).
Never been much of a relationship guy though – even short term – so I currently have too many dry spells lasting up to around three months. I don’t care for that at all, so I usually hire pros 3-4 times a month when dating isn’t working out. So far I’ve never felt like paying 2-5 times as much for a 9 and 10 when I’m usually perfectly satisfied banging 6s and 7s. And here the prices are indeed much, much lower than in Western Europe – 30-50 Euro for one hour is typical here (10 extra for transportation if she’s coming to your place, but I usually prefer going to them, most working individually or with one or two other girls in apartments).
As far as how enjoyable sex with a hooker can be. I’ve had lousy sex where the girl couldn’t even pretend to put on a smile – I finish as quickly as possible and get the hell out of there (never been to a place yet that had so many obvious warning signs that I felt I really ought to leave before sex).
I’ve had a lot of mediocre sex that really wasn’t much better or worse than many of the (semi-)drunken one night stands I had a lot of when I was younger. Though tending towards better since I rarely drink much alcohol these days.
And I’ve had plenty of experiences where the girl put on a good act and was sexually far more skilled and more enjoyable to be with than many of my normal sex partners. Several of those happened in Thailand at the end of last year – my first trip, two months, to SEA. Although meeting sweet but average looking regular girls was so easy there that I actually ended up in two short term relationships (I’d classify them as semi-transactional, I tried to make it obvious that the only thing I was ever going to pay for was going out for food, one girl was fine with that, the other tried to squeeze a bit more out of me but didn’t push the issue) and banged a few hookers on the side just for fun and variety – and got some more exciting and varied sex there.
March 6, 2015 at 1:33 am
To each his own, but i honestly dont get why you would go for cheap 6s and 7s, in ukraine for example you can get a gorgeous 9 for 200 if you do your research. I encourage you to at least try it, in experience its worth the extra cash.
October 6, 2016 at 8:00 pm
I day game but when I don’t get time I hire an escort. I can afford to pay for quality escorts who ate medically checked.
With day game your not going to pull hot models. I mean why would she want see you when she already has a huge circle of orbiters ?
If you got time to walk up and down Oxford Street for 6 hours then fair game to you but don’t expect to pull models.
November 17, 2015 at 7:27 pm
You hit the nail on the head. One of my best friend ‘s friend married a former escort that I did a couple of years ago. I said nothing, to the delight of the bride to be. The groom thought of himself as a sort of dating expert. Poor shmuck. I chuckled to myself. I know more about women than just about anybody on this planet and I can tell you that nothing is certain. One of my friends married a former stripper and they are together for 10 years with two kids like two love birds. My other best friend married his high school sweethart, a virgin who became the biggest whore imaginable. Why go so far, my own uncle Yuri, 6’3 alpha male became cuckold – and get this, his competition – family doctor, scrawny looking 5’1 dweeb. Go figure out. Women have no idea what they want. Sleeping with a man means nothing, ask Mike Tyson, had he used escorts his name would not have been tainted. Escort will not file a false rape claim, let’s factor that into equation. By the way I am 6’1, athletic, who has recently started using escorts and telling my ‘real’ dates about it. One woman was shaken up by this confession that she actually jumped me in the car, I told her that I used her for satisfying my emotional needs , for sex I needed an 8 or a 9. Speaking of value – unless she is a virgin I see no distinction between a regular woman and a prostitute. Her vagina has known penises other then mine and her lips have been wrapped around other cocks then mine. Hooker or no hooker. We have to change with the changing environment. Change hardware, change software.
March 5, 2015 at 12:17 pm
Seeing prostitutes and escorts does work for some people for a multitude of reasons it’s not necessarily just the men who are just too wuss to go out and hit it hard daygame/nightgame trial by fire to earn those lays and even build solid relationships. I know of a lot of guys with girlfriends/married that still go punting because variety is just the spice of life. I personally see it as a viable option to meet my needs, though many see it as the only option but people like Krauser and CH should rid you of that notion pretty quickly. Don’t be a fool though wrap your tool.
Whoring is so antithetical to what this blog is about. I see my young nephew and I don’t want him to be anything like me in terms how I deal with women and being so introverted/isolationalist. You need to build solid confidence and good habits when you’re young not just around women but even general if you want to be successful in life because you will be dealing with both sexes on a day to day basis. I still don’t see any problem in paying for sex it’s only you become reliant and it’s your only means to get your needs met.
March 5, 2015 at 1:41 pm
If you see escorts too much it can become very addictive and expensive. There was i time when it started to become a problem for me, i had found an invitation only agency that had some insanely hot girls from all over eastern europe, they spoke minimal english but their bodies were a sight to behold, I was spending probably a lot of money on them. They werent really giving a good performance since they were very young and new too the business, but there is just something about seeing a smoking hot 18 year old in lingerie just lying there with her ass up. It got really bad for me cause i kept thinking i gotta have this girl again, i gotta do these 2 at the same time, i gotta do that new girl and so on, which was extremely expensive. It got to the point where i spent all my savings on escorts, instead of buying a new car.
In retrospect, i was spending way too much money, especially paying for 2 girls. Paying double the price for a threesome where the girls dont have experience with it since they dont usually do duos is stupid and awkward.
March 5, 2015 at 10:25 pm
I think the cost of not learning game is massive when you look at things like ‘no fault’ divorce, false rape accusations, cuckoldry and forever being and acting like a clueless beta and being shafted by the government and people around you.
An average person not versed in game looking in might think it’s all about getting laid. When the actual fact is, you’re developing yourself as a man and learning and developing things about yourself that could never be bought with a University degree or a Million pound cheque. Daygame forces introspection, creates adversity and builds character; Traits that can only ever be built with hard graft and perseverance.
Its very easy to pass off daygame as a waste of time and use opportunity cost as a smart form of weaseling.
When you look at it in that context, the opportunity cost is awesome… You’re improving ‘yourself’ in order to be better with women. It’s a crucial point that guys need to understand.
March 6, 2015 at 1:47 am
Bit of a rant thanks to the double espresso I had for lunch earlier.
Guys are talking about overtly paying for sex but are missing a more subtle point; transactional sex does not have to involve money. A girl will fuck a guy for a variety of reasons. In addition to wealth there’s fame, looks, status, social “in’s”, jealousy, drunken debauchery, drugs, entertainment, to-do lists. Sex is everywhere; game isn’t necessary to achieve it all the time. Girls will also have sex to validate themselves. Blue pill guys can still have sex too, they just rarely have a say in the matter.
The issue of game isn’t solely about sex. It’s about sex on your terms, and when the sex meets both your personal criteria and the girl’s desire to sleep with you, it’s one of the most electrifying things you can feel. It’s not the meaning of life but it’s a great feeling in itself.
Paying for sex aside, what if unleashing the notch fury involves scarfing down a bunch of late night/swipe right “i’m a 6 i never do this” cheeseburgers with only an occasional greyhound juicy sirloin? OK you’re getting your protein notch validation yet consider the source. You wonder what this GMO laden mystery meat does to you over time, if this is a proper game diet. Maybe the junk shouldn’t count or counts adversely past a certain point and more attention should be spent on the process of obtaining consistent, better quality sirloin without killing yourself over it.
There’s ego sex in the sense that you collect +1s and tell a wide-eyed bored soul how you showed up and didn’t fuck up. Then there’s ego sex in the sense of personal satisfaction. You look at the girl’s figure as she naps in your bed and you think, “yeah she can stick around for breakfast” or “i’d walk down the street with her.” Not saying you have to date a girl for the sex to be validational, but there’s a different process to sleeping with a girl through deliberate effort based on desire versus having something alright fall into your lap, taking it because it’s easy, or doing it for the story. You can still have stories, but you’re not manufacturing the story for blog hits. It’s a bonus to great sex.
The real trick to game is how to account for the validation aspect of sex for a man. To quote a famous Ginger Romanian, “Nowadays people know the price of everything and the value of nothing.”
For many men, sex is enough. For some, sex is just the beginning. Once I realized I could have sexual success through my own will and effort, I realized that, for me, sex alone means nothing. Instead of OK sex where I was being chosen by standing out in a venue or crafting a perfect online portfolio, I wanted to choose the girl based on my criteria, taste and desire because I know that after that that session I’d feel like a champ. I’m not saying nightlife or online are useless but for me it’s more time inefficient and inconsistent given the (sometimes begrudging) effort put in.
The biggest hurdle I find to locking in validation sex is harnessing the ego. Daygame is a major compliance test regarding your value. Stripping the mating dance to the bare essentials of man vs woman with nothing but the shirt on your back and the experiences you’ve accumulated to propel you – this direct confrontation with one’s value at that moment of truth is terrifying for most men. I see it everyday as guys look at girls on the street or in the cafe, maybe they hover near her but they do NOTHING. They admire from afar, as her aura is enough for them for their next masturbation session.
Most guys would prefer scheming for ways to get women to come to them. To have that “in”, to own the nightclub, or have the perfect suit, a flawless body, portrait or leadership session. If a man genuinely wants that, then more power to him. But I have this creeping suspicion that most guys aren’t doing things “in themselves” but “because of something”. No matter what they’re telling others, they’re secretly externally referenced.
No wonder I hear a lot of advice of not daygaming for the sake of it but on your errands, don’t try to pick up the girl, get her by having an interesting life, basically sort everything else in your life out and “women will sort themselves”. “Be social”. I understand the instinctual need to protect one’s ego, yet how can a guy validate himself if he won’t be honest with himself? If he won’t say nothing risked nothing gained?
Unless you’re aggressively marketing yourself, few care about your interesting life or accomplishments. You still need game to communicate all that.
The best way to work your game muscle is to feel that ego sting and validation time and time again. I stopped trying to get rid of ego. I don’t want to be a Buddhist wallflower. I just learn to understand him so that he helps me when he needs to and shuts up when he’s out of element. Now an ego sting is like a muscle twitching. Great, I feel ALIVE!
I hear more guys weaseling out of their intent to daygame while Krauser here simply says he enjoys daygame for the sake of it. He doesn’t daygame “because of something as a sidedish”. His “lifestyle niche” and “interesting hobbies” include video games and economics. hardly a Miami business lounge playboy yet he can still idate Russian models.
The sigma approach is a breath of fresh air over the alpha cartoon sketches being portrayed as “the way”.
A man’s value becomes apparent when he harnesses and follows his desires with zeal. If a guy is dancing around his desire hoping to be noticed then he’ll keep going in circles. Maybe he’ll get laid, but it’ll probably be on the girl’s terms. Well, at least he gets a +1 out of it.
March 6, 2015 at 4:11 am
I wouldn’t call the things that Seven Dials left out “intangibles”, just things that he failed to account for. His analysis framework can incorporate that a guy might enjoy gaming for the sport of it, or that he might find validational sex much more satisfying than transactional sex. He just has to adjust the costs and benefits accordingly.
“Banging whores rots your soul.”
It’s interesting that a lot of PUAs have written about the soul-rotting effects of banging non-whores for ego validation / a sense of achievement, too. (The classic example being the ex-RSD instructor Ciaran, who left pickup completely shortly after this post: http://zentransformation.blogspot.com/2008/05/falling-feels-like-flying-on-way-down.html). I think it’s about what you expect from it. Perhaps some PUAs who are broken and seeking validation through pickup will find the soul-rotting effect of their actions more severe than those of a john who pays for a prostitute with a clear-eyed understanding of what he’s doing and what it means.
A lot of guys who are good with women seem to take a lot of pride in the fact that they have never and would never use a prostitute because it is akin to cheating and doesn’t prove anything. They seem to think soliciting a prostitute is an admission that they “need to” hire prostitutes to fuck attractive women — a thought that would depress them and lower their self esteem. But, what if a guy is very secure and doesn’t feel the need to prove anything? What if some rich guy who is good with women has an early flight tomorrow, doesn’t feel like leaving his hotel room, and would rather order a $300 blowjob than watch TV in his remaining hour before falling asleep? I think there are plenty of opportunities for soul-rotting when doing both pickup and when hiring prostitutes if the guy is self-deluded about his reasons for either action and what he’s getting out of it, but that both can also be done healthily.
March 6, 2015 at 11:01 pm
Krauser, thanks for the shout and the traffic, and even more, thanks for the argument. So if you’ll just hold the dead horse down while I flog it a moment longer…
You’re right, I wasn’t suggesting we should use hookers. I was suggesting that there comes a financial point where, if you are spending more than it, on an avoidable costs basis, you need to re-evaluate what you’re doing, and that one way of setting the number would be the price of a decent escort. A couple of examples…
Suppose a guy flies budget to various European towns each weekend, stays in an Air BnB, has a few drinks and a couple of decent meals, goes to a club, and (usually) picks up a girl. That’s all do-able for £500 or so. The question is: why is he doing this? Maybe there are no girls in his small home town thirty miles from the nearest Caffe Nero, so the cost is about where he lives, not chasing girls. If it’s because he likes spending weekends away in European towns and would do even if he wasn’t into chasing girls, then that’s his hobby, and the girls are (more or less free). If it’s because he can’t seem to run decent game in London on the sisters of all those girls he meets in Europe, well, maybe he needs to look at his Game.
Now suppose there’s a guy in hock to his credit card buying clothes, watches, club entry, drinks for any girl who asks, first date theatre tickets and dinners for two, and pays two-thirds of his net salary for a flat with fabulous logistics, and all he’s getting is a club slut every six weeks or so? This guy is doing almost everything wrong. Someone help him before he goes bankrupt.
Which answers Tommy’s question about the cost of taking a shit. It’s almost always free, especially if done in working hours. But if your employer has disgusting toilets so you have to use a café and buy a coffee for politeness, then the £2.50 isn’t the cost of a shit, it’s yet another cost of going to work. But if you’re a day-trader and you take a dump during a market move, you could wind up poorer. There are stories of traders who assign the loss to taking a dump, and so don’t. All day. Not the way I’d assign it.
And so to forgone income. Part of the point of my post was that you’re as good as it gets in daygame, and you need to dedicate a lot of time, way more than a couple of hours a weekend, to get results. What I missed was that you don’t spend nine months a year doing flat-out daygame, so the results are gained in a much shorter period. You don’t put on a suit and earn during that down-time, because that’s the way you choose to live. So a lot of your foregone income isn’t attributable to daygame but lifestyle choice. Which is a point a couple of people made. So maybe the costs of daygame aren’t as horrible as I originally thought.
Nobody should make decisions solely on the basis of cost. But they shouldn’t be ignorant of, or deny, the costs either. The last point I made in the original post was about the way everyone pretends that sex costs nothing and pushes its costs onto the activities we’re doing when… wow, we just happened to get lucky. That way men don’t have to see how close they are to being paying clients or entertaining clowns, and women don’t have to see how close they get to making men johns and comedians. And as some commentators have pointed out, there are more costs than money involved with the company of women.
Which brings us to the validation / transactional thing. While Rollo exegesis can be tricky, my understanding is that he says that men want validational sex, and may think they are getting it, but in a woman’s mind all sex is transactional, even with her Alpha, because what he’s providing in return is the Alpha experience. When he stops providing Alpha, she stops providing sex. Hence the well-known line about women being incapable of loving men they way we want them to love us, and its cousin “men love romantically, women love opportunistically”. (The Red Pill really is one hell of a downer.) However, some transactions are more transactional than others, and I’m guessing a £90 bored Czech hooker in Dalston is way more transactional than a cute Spanish undergraduate over here for her summer holidays.
Though I’ve never paid for sex directly, I’ve paid for it indirectly, as has every man at least once, if he’s honest with himself. The most expensive sex I ever had was a ghastly weekend at the Henley Regatta where I wound up paying for all sorts of things, including admission and dinner dance at some club near the finish line where you can’t take your damn jacket off at any time no matter how hot it its. When, during the act back at her place, I realised how much the shag was costing me, it stiffened my resolve something invigorating, and I stopped giving a damn whether she was enjoying it or not. All that mattered was that I got my end away. That was around £600 at today’s prices and as transactional as it gets. She got dumped fairly quickly after that stunt.
Okay, we can let this horse go to the knacker’s yard now.
March 7, 2015 at 9:05 am
That second paragraph is really badly worded and shouldn’t be in the second person at all. It should read:
You’re right, I wasn’t suggesting we should use hookers. I was suggesting that if a man is spending more than some indicative amount, calculated on an avoidable costs basis, he needs to re-evaluate what he’s doing (and he can decide he’s happy with it), and that in this context one way of setting that amount would be the price of a decent escort.
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