You’d think PUA types and MRA types would get along just fine. Both have swallowed a red pill to see the true nature of women, male-female relations, and the structures in society that discriminate against men. On the surface, at least, there are grounds for a common cause. However there seem to be two broad types of PUA and two types of MRA:
- Young guy with little life experience, gunning it solo in the clubs and streets, up for adventure and a high laycount
- Older guy coming off some bad experiences, trying to relearn the ropes and lower the age of the girls he dates.
- Burned out older guy suffering the consequences of a horrendous divorce raping, finding a community of like-minded sufferers to vent with to ease the pain and disillusionment.
- Guys who had a near miss with the forces of misandry and has hurriedly educated himself on the bullet he just dodged. He is seeking to rearm himself before going back into life.
Crude, I know. You’d only expect the (2) guys of each camp to get along. PUA (1) doesn’t give a flying fuck for the sociology of Game and hasn’t had any rude awakenings with women. MRA (1) is a totally broken man who is light years from accepting responsibility for his hand in his own broken dreams. I think most of the hostility between PUAs and MRAs is between the type (1)s.
That said, I think there is a genuine bone of contention that can’t be explained away by mere divergent interests and life situations. A common charge by MRAs against Game is that no matter how successful you are with women the very fact you chase them is supplication and the process of chasing them diminishes you as a man. Thus the PUA lifestyle is supporting the pedestalised position of women to the detriment of men, enabling bad female behaviour, saving them from the loneliness such behaviour deserves, and ultimately it is traitorous to the emancipation of men.
It’s a hefty charge. I also think it’s mistaken. Partially. I’ll allow Ayn Rand to offer her thoughts via Atlas Shrugged:
“People think that a liar gains a victory over his victim. What I’ve learned is that a lie is an act of self-abdication, because one surrenders one’s reality to the person to whom one lies, making that person one’s master, condemning oneself from then on to faking the sort of reality that person’s view requires to be faked. And if one gains the immediate purpose of the lie – the price one pays is the destruction of that which the gain was intended to serve. The man who lies to the world, is the world’s slave from then on.” Hank Rearden speaking on page 859.
Thank you Ayn Rand for eloquently stating both the fundamental flaw in approaching Game from the Dark Side, and also for why MRAs dislike PUAs. Let’s unpack the statement as it applies to pickup.
MRAs assume PUAs are all dark side and thus Game relies upon changing your identity so you can tailor all your responses to what you think will win the girls approval of you for sex, and that chasing skirt is the main goal in your life. Thus when the PUA lays the girl, the “liar gains a victory over his victim…. one gains the immediate purpose of the lie.” There’s no free lunch. The cost of the lie is in surrendering your identity. You have accepted the target’s frame and allowed yourself to be sucked into her reality. You are not the selector. You know that showing your real identity and intention will lead to a “no” answer and therefore you must create an impression in the girl that you are something you are not, that you are the man who meets her criteria. Thus you fake a reality that is not your own. This is “living a lie” and creates cognitive dissonance which corrodes your identity and self-esteem. The girl’s reality becomes your master.
I think this is what MRAs are trying to articulate when they bash PUAs for being shameless skirt-chasers. They have a point. Few things are more important to a man than his strength of character, his word, and his willingness to impose himself onto an uncompliant world. Surrendering your masculine purpose to get your cock inside a girl cheapens you as a man, and MRAs are very sensitive about their masculinity.
How about the PUA side? Well that’s rather less esoteric. They look at MRAs and see a group of whiny guys not getting laid who are trying hard to rationalise their way out of their sense of inadequacy. Decent PUAs have done their 1,000 Sets Of Hell and are rightly damn proud of that achievement. They don’t take kindly to keyboard jockeys telling them they aren’t masculine when they are going out every weekend and taking rejection after rejection, clawing their way up Pussy Mountain one notch at a time. Being masculine isn’t just about what the MRAs value, it’s also about taking control of your destiny, not relying on somebody else to fix your problems, and getting laid.
My conclusion? If MRAs were to resist holding a 2002 Mystery caricature of Game they’d see that Light Side doesn’t diminish men at all and moreover it returns women to their rightful submissive role – which is where they always longed to be.
November 4, 2011 at 4:02 am
Very good philosophical take on it. Your framework + Rand provided valuable insight.
” and MRAs are very sensitive about their masculinity.”
November 4, 2011 at 7:09 am
I’m definetly pua 1. Haven’t got much life-expirience and i didn’t even know what an MRA was until now. And yeah i only care to get mines. What others do is entirely their decision. But it is really interesting from your point of view that there are guys out there that oppose what we do and why they choose to do it. [Although I identify as an MRA as well as a player, I have no problem with this. Do what makes you happy. K.]
November 4, 2011 at 12:17 pm
I’m very happy that you, more so than other people have decided to help open up the discussion of this topic and make it more public, particularly because of your great experience. Other people are doing it too – these issues are becoming prominent in the underground PUA/MRA blogosphere and I like it very much.
Roissy deleted/left unapproved my comments on his blog about the adverse impact of men practicing game. I’m disapointed about that because there are great, intelligent, highly original discussions about the state of affairs regarding the insight game has had on feminism in the comments on that blog (less so by the blog’s author himself). It reminds me a lot of when I got banned from leftist websites when I became disillusioned with collectivism and the idiocy of its proponents. It makes me wonder whether Roissy is silencing dissent in order to preserve the health of his blog and whether he has vested interests in his involvement with PUA. Its certainly alarming. [I’ve never had any of my comments unapproved by him and he does let people bash him / his ideas without any obvious censorship. K.]
“Being masculine isn’t just about what the MRAs value, it’s also about taking control of your destiny, not relying on somebody else to fix your problems, and getting laid.”
I’m not completely convinced and at this stage I’m largely sitting on the fence as to the question of whether PUA is supplication. This guy makes a very convincing argument that it is.
You say that “Light Side” style game doesnt diminish men, and I assume you believe it is not at all deleterious to the health of male identities. I’d like to know more about this. I think that a balance can be achieved between 1. Staying true to your identity – and 2. achieving great sexual success with women – but I personally cannot do it at the moment. It seems like it is very possible and very easy to lose your dignity in the process of getting laid – you wrote about this once.
If a bunch of ape-men in night clubs can get laid then thats wonderful for them, but what price did they pay for it? You’re right, a man’s identity is one of the most important facets of his existence. I’m looking forward to more discussion on this topic, I think a compromise and satisfying end can be made on this issue the more it is discussed.
November 5, 2011 at 12:29 am
Good knowledge. There are a lot of dudes that don’t fit in either. My buddy got divorced and buggered by the system. Lost house, kids, wife is screwing a deadbeat, no $, u get the picture. He read the game stuff (mystery) and said fuck that. He’s banging himself a hole to China now.
November 5, 2011 at 6:48 pm
Definition: Game /gām/
A process of research, self-discovery and evidence-based learning culminating in the rejection of unmerited social constraints given to man so that man may benefit from the unmerited social freedom given to woman.
– – – – – – – – – – – – – –
I think the MRA guys are stuck on bashing Jr. PUAs who are still in the training, research and self-discovery mode. Women are relationship terrorists who use unconventional weapons (flaking, manipulation, lying, rationalization hamsters, etc.) to destroy innocent civilians (betas) while hiding behind a religion (feminism) which deceptively claims the use of such weapons is not encouraged. Unfortunately, a man cannot truly understand the enemy until he learns to think like the enemy – giving MRAs the short sided notion that all men who study game will spend the rest of their life in basic training (banging sluts). But once a man’s game matures and he has sufficient field experience, he can execute game in hookups, LTRs, marriage, and even the workplace to keep his bitch boss in awe of him. The mature PUA, or game practitioner, is stealth by comparison and can accurately assess the threat level of a particular woman long before she gets close enough to do any damage. A man new to game is boots on the ground on the front lines engaging one vapid slut at a time, while a senior game practitioner is putting bombs on target with an unmanned drone he’s flying from the safety of a command center back on base.
PUAs specialize in launching preemptive strikes (using game to screen for quality while still getting the lay), while MRAs specialize in rebuilding nations (she took everything in the divorce, so now I’m going to rebuild my life and never let that happen again). Both are an equally valuable and necessary part of the mission, so there’s absolutely no reason why two squadrons on the same damn force shouldn’t find value in each other’s skill set. Information is power, and while one man’s negative experiences is another man’s warning (divorced raped MRA), one man’s positive experience (freshly fucked PUA) is another man’s motivator.
There’s plenty of room for all of us.
November 5, 2011 at 7:06 pm
Totally agree with this. Thanks, Phil.
November 6, 2011 at 8:24 pm
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November 6, 2011 at 8:24 pm
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